Is There A Purgatory?

http://www.ovrlnd.com ^ | Unknown | Thomas F. Heinze

[Old Yeller]

The Bible never speaks of a place where one can go to be purified of his sin. Rather, it always speaks of a Person to whom we can go to be purified: Jesus Christ. God tells us that those who refuse to trust Christ to cleanse them from their sins are condemned: Whoever believes in Him avoids condemnation, but whoever does not believe is already condemned for not believing in the name of God's only Son (John 3:18). There are only two choices: Whoever believes in the Son has life eternal. Whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but must endure the wrath of God (John 3:36; See also Revelation 20:15; Luke 16:19-31, especially verse 26). Anyone who accepts Christ is completely saved: There is no condemnation now for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1). Saying that there is no condemnation, certainly eliminates the flames of purgatory.

Another passage which clearly excludes the idea of purgatory is, their sins and transgressions I will remember no more (Hebrews 10:17). If, as the Bible says, God no longer remembers the sins of those who are in Christ, He does not punish them for these sins. To do so would be saying that Christ had not made full payment for them and that God the Father still remembered them. (See also Romans 5:8-11; Hebrews 10:14-18; Psalm 103:12).

Anyone who does not believe that Christ has completely saved him, has not completely trusted Christ to save him. That is, he does not believe that Christ's sacrifice has paid for all of his sins, and thinks he must pay for some of them himself. However, we are saved when we stop trusting what we can do, and start trusting Christ to save us.

The idea that Christ's sacrifice is not sufficient to cleanse us from all of our sins would condemn a great sinner such as the thief who was crucified with Jesus to suffer a long time in purgatory if not for all eternity in hell! Instead, there was nothing left over that Christ's death on the Cross did not cover. When the thief placed his trust in Christ, Jesus said to him, I assure you: this day you will be with me in paradise (Luke 23:43).

If purgatory existed, and the mass helped people to get out, the rich would have a tremendous advantage by being able to pay for masses to shorten their suffering. The poor instead, would be left to the mercy of the occasional priest who might say an unpaid mass for them. One ex-priest wrote, "If we really believed that the mass would save people from the flames of purgatory, would we make them pay for it? I would even save a dog if I saw one in a fire, and I would never even think of asking to be paid!"

Purgatory was evidently a pagan idea. Virgil, the pagan Latin poet who lived 70 - 19 B.C. divided the departed souls into three different places in his writings: One for the good, one for the damned, and a third where the less bad could pay for their sins. Since the idea of purgatory existed outside of the church before it came into the church, it is probable that it was brought in by contact with pagans like Virgil. There was a great influx of non-Biblical ideas into the church around 300 A.D. when the Roman Emperor Constantine took many unsaved people in as members of the church.

In any event, there is no mention of purgatory in the Bible. Some would try, however, to make the idea sound somewhat Biblical by referring to 2 Maccabees 12:41-45, a passage in one of the apocryphal books written between the times of the Old and New Testaments. These books were never accepted as part of the Hebrew Old Testament, nor quoted in the New Testament, but they are included in the Catholic Bible, though usually with an explanation that they are of a less inspired category. Apart from this passage in 2 Maccabees, the apocrypha is little used by the Catholic church to support a doctrinal position.

It is important to notice that this passage does not speak of purgatory at all, but actually condemns idolatry, particularly the practice of wearing little images on a necklace or such. Hebrew soldiers were found wearing this sort of thing after a battle, and their buddies, on making this discovery, realized that they had died in the sin of idolatry. They then counseled prayer for their souls. The Roman Catholic position is that prayer for them would have been unnecessary if they were in heaven and useless if they were in hell, so there must be another place. The logic seems good, but the result contradicts the clear teaching of the inspired Scripture. Contradicting inspired Scripture with a philosophical response based on an apparent inference from the Apocrypha is a very weak argument indeed. The very word "Apocrypha," which comes from the Greek word for hidden, has come to mean "false," or "of doubtful authorship."

[avenir]

Interesting take on perspective. Does it really deal with the clear warnings in Scripture against the magic arts (however disguised)? I’d say no, not by a long shot. I counter that it has nothing to do with how I “see things”, since—unlike your creative reply—the Word does not equivocate on this issue.

[BlueDragon]

Lucia Lodge

[GBA]

I don't know if this applies to you or not, but I keep falling into what seems to be one of the pitfalls or traps along the seeker's path. And, dude, that trap will stop you cold and many never get out of it.

I've had to constantly make sure that I don't love my own (or someone else's) interpretation of God more than I do God, Himself/Their Selves.

It's a subtle distinction, which is one reason I think it's a trap, but it's a very serious one for someone like me.

Experience here in Schoolhouse Earth, what I call this Matrix God created for us, has shown me far too many times that I know what I know...but sometimes I'm wrong.

That's why I love Proverbs 3:5 and why it's good for me to keep moving around the stadium.

It's far too easy for a personality like mine to succumb and then become some flavor of Pharisee and then not see, see?

Far too many times, I, myself, have gotten in my own way and find that I am blocking the Light and my poor, cold feet learned long ago that my inner light just ain't enough to keep me warm.

So...I keep hearing the words of philosopher "Pablo Cruise" saying: "Keep your heart open and Love will find a way."

If you don't, it won't. It won't show it, but you don't know it.

The Holy Spirit has an interesting sense of humor that way. Runs in the Family, I think.

[GBA]

Dang, I got that wrong.

I think Pablo Cruise said "cause" not "and".

It's my own fault.

Open headers, gunpowder and Marshall amps that go to eleven are no way to treat your hearing. You can quote me.

[avenir]

You are a creative, I get it, and appreciate it. We KNOW that’s from the Lord, lol. I guess my reaction to my own spaciness is that I’m all the more drawn to the utter SOUNDNESS and UPRIGHTNESS of our God. Like the woman Wisdom says:

8 All the words of my mouth are righteous;
there is nothing twisted or crooked in them.
9 They are all straight to him who understands,
and right to those who find knowledge.—Proverbs 8

That is echoed in 1 John:

God is light and in him there is no darkness.

So much darkness and crookedness in this old world, but NONE in our Lord. Praise Him!

[Syncro]

Ah, Big Sur...my old stompin’ grounds.

Totally awesome natural beauty

[BlueDragon]

Did you ever meet Father Bernard at the monastery?

I suppose he's a goner now, but looking at the satellite image, things looked different that I remember.

[Syncro]

No but I did meet Fritz Perls, the Gestalt guy, at Esalen.

Spent a lot of time there.

A friend was the wine steward there back then.

Maybe they served some of the monestary wine?

Great mineral baths overlooking the ocean.

[GBA]

I've answered you in a fairly straight forward manner, I think, given the nature of the discussion and material.

Look, I wasn't there and didn't experience what t&r is reporting back.

Therefore, I think that I don't know and, as such, I can't agree with your conclusions and opinions. I just don't have enough info, but am willing to go out into the field, so to speak, and look for it.

As background, I am aware of others who have stories similar to t&r's. These stories tickled my ears and curiosity and what a gratifying search those stories have begun!

From what I remember, I think he had a near death experience and is also one of those who came back with a story to tell, as well as being one of those who came back with a gift.

I have read quite a few of these stories told by people from around the world, from different cultures and faiths, male and female, young, old and in between and, with only a very few exceptions, each and all tell an almost identical story.

I've also read many, many accounts of Mary, who, though new to me, is virtually identical in all of them, in personality, the types of things she says and how she phrases them, etc. In each and every encounter I've read about, including the personal messages she's written and those she's contributed to in TLIG, she's seems consistently the same to me and kinda like what I imagine the Mother of God might be like.

I've read of good and bad spirits and gotten close enough on plenty of occasions, rarely if ever intentionally, to have verified the bad to my own satisfaction. Same for the good. It's all real. What convinced me might not convince you, but I say it's all real.

Something else? In addition to stories like that of Elisha's servant that I referenced earlier, and the examples given in the short column I posted a link to, the Bible is chock full of the supernatural and clues as to what it might mean when They say that we humans are "created in Our image".

Not to tweak you, but I kinda like what Osteen says when holding up his Bible at the beginning of his message/show/sermon: "This is my Bible. I am what it says I am. I have what it says I have. I can do what it says I can do."

Yep. Can't argue there, even if I don't/can't fully understand what that means or even get close to an understanding.

Earlier I've quoted passages, and hope I got them right, that support the benevolent gifts of Grace that will be bestowed upon His wayward creation when the time is right and, boy howdy, do these times feel wrong enough to be that kind of right. Agreed?

Please know that I appreciate your advice and concerns, I just don't share your perception and therefore can't share your conclusions and opinions. Fair enough?

Maybe I'll come around to your point of view, maybe you'll come around to mine or maybe we'll meet somewhere in between or most likely we won't know until our physical bodies die.

Then we'll know for certain! Until then...it's fun to speculate about as we seek to understand the Truth that has been given to us, as well as where we are in the story we were born into.

But, I do know for a FACT that the seeker MUST keep his/her ego in check and his or her heart open or s/he will fall into that trap I spoke of.

Like I should have said about keeping your heart open and the Holy Spirit showing the way: If you don't, it won't. It won't show it, but you don't know it....but you THINK you do!

Then it's "Hey? How about a little Protestant/Catholic feud, dude?" Oh yeah, it's on! And it's right back to fighting about Jesus, Mary and who Daddy loves best.

And that right there, my friend, is one of those sneaky little demons you never even suspect having its way with you.

[terycarl]

The age of your group has no bearing on veracity or it's foundation. It is based on lies, superstition, and pagan practices.

Of course it does...if you were there at the beginning, when Christ founded His church....chances are real good that you are that church.....Catholicism is based on total truth.

[terycarl]

We Christians follow the Bible instead. What I posted to you is Biblically sound.

That would, of course, be the Bible that was compiled, transcribed, and saved through 16 centuries until certain "Christian" rebels decided to edit it and reinterpret verses as they saw fit....PATHETIC'''

Imagine saying that "THIS IS MY BODY" didn't really say this is my body......amazing!!!

[terycarl]

neither was St. PAul or John the Revelator or ALL of the very early church fathers.

Sure they were, if they were Christians in Christ's newly founded church, they were Catholics.....belonged to the group that became known as, and called, Catholic.

[terycarl]

Neither was St. Peter; too!

Sure he was....Christ liked him so much that He made him the Rock upon which He built His church....first leader....Pope.

[terycarl]

Isn't it neat when we get to make up our own biblical interpretations....makes life so much easier... Say the Rosary and make Mary very happy!

Who ever said that the rosary was mentioned in the Bible.....did Christianity cease evolving when the Evangelists wrote their last book???

[terycarl]

Talking out of both sides of your mouth has finally caught up to you:

???????????????In post 600 I said that I did not know the requirements of a Jewish marriage....I NEVER said that Mary and Joseph were under Catholic marriage requirements, nor that they were Catholic at all.....

[WVKayaker]

Of course it does...if you were there at the beginning, when Christ founded His church....chances are real good that you are that church.....Catholicism is based on total truth.

You can keep thinking that all the way to Hell!

No matter how many times you repeat a lie, it is still a lie! Jesus founded His church. It was not in rome, though some of the believers lived there. It never had Peter as the leader of any group. He was only one of the Apostles. By the way, did you read that he denied knowing Jesus? THREE TIMES.

Lies and damnable lies is all the Roman cult can offer. Damnable is the proper term since those that accept and follow them are purely on the wrong road!

As my friend already told you. we can see you are sincere. But, sincerity in following a manmade (or Satanmade) religion does not lead anybody to Christ. Eating bread does not offer any path to salvation. Monotonous, repetitious words are offered in vain. They profit nothing at all.

I wasn't there at the Beginning, but my Lord was they one that started it all. He never wore gold when garments, nor did He spend any time talking about the importance of following men. He offered us that certainty which only He can give. By being followers of Christ, we are Christians. By following fallible men in fancy clothes, and waving bowls of incense, while clinging to a cultic "religion" will not pass any soul through the Refiner's Fire!

Roman Catholicism looks like any other cult. It is based on works and indoctrination from early age builds the core of it's disciples. It requires blind obedience to it's leaders. Just like the Muzzies, my FRiend! At least you aren't required to grow a beard!

The word "church" as rendered in the New Testament comes from the Greek term ekklesia which is formed from two Greek words meaning "an assembly" and "to call out" or "called out ones." In summary, the New Testament church is a body of believers who have been called out from the world by God to live as his people under the authority of Jesus Christ (Ephesians 1:22-23). This group of believers or "the body of Christ" began in Acts 2 on the Day of Pentecost through the work of the Holy Spirit and will continue to be formed until the day of the rapture of the church.

Becoming a Member of the Church

A person becomes "a member" of the church simply by exercising faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

The Church Local Versus the Church Universal

The local church is defined as a local assembly of believers or a congregation that meets together physically for worship, fellowship, teaching, prayer and encouragement in the faith (Hebrews 10:25). At the local church level, we are able to live in relationship with other believers—we break bread together (Communion), pray for each other, disciple, and strengthen one another. At the same time, all believers are members of the universal church. The universal church is made up of every single person who has exercised faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, including members of every local church body throughout the earth (1 Corinthians 12:13; Ephesians 1:22-23). ...

[terycarl]

Hi, Terycarl. When I stated that I could cry, I was referring primarily to your posts concerning Jewish marriage. I’m sickened that a person who seems to love the Lord has been deprived any knowledge concerning the greatest Jewish wedding that will ever take place.

Good grief, don't get carried away, I was simply referring to the earthly marriage of Joseph and Mary....two simple people from Nazareth....I have no idea as to what two Jewish people were required to do to be validly married.....

[avenir]

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. Bless you.

[GBA]

My sincere apologies for being so long winded. I'm working on that.
And thank you. Bless you, too.

This could be of value, so I offer it for your consideration:

A Warning Message To The World And The Usa
February 7, 2002

[Syncro]

We Christians follow the Bible instead. What I posted to you is Biblically sound.

That would, of course, be the Bible that was compiled, transcribed, and...etc etc etc same ol' spam ad nauseam.

No, it's the Bible that IS Jesus Christ, the Word of God.

God breathed.

The Holy Spirit of God brought us the Sword of the Spirit, the Bible.

Yes, the bookbinder wants all the credit I know. Sorry.

Jesus is not a Catholic.

Jesus did not read out of a "Catholic" Bible when he read scriptures in the Temple.

Catholics did not write the Bible.

Of course this has been 'splained to you many times.

Goodness, Catholicism didn't even start until the 3rd century!

Pray for the Holy Spirit to enlighten you on all of this OK?