Posted on 08/09/2015 11:06:27 AM PDT by Old Yeller
The Bible never speaks of a place where one can go to be purified of his sin. Rather, it always speaks of a Person to whom we can go to be purified: Jesus Christ. God tells us that those who refuse to trust Christ to cleanse them from their sins are condemned: Whoever believes in Him avoids condemnation, but whoever does not believe is already condemned for not believing in the name of God's only Son (John 3:18). There are only two choices: Whoever believes in the Son has life eternal. Whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but must endure the wrath of God (John 3:36; See also Revelation 20:15; Luke 16:19-31, especially verse 26). Anyone who accepts Christ is completely saved: There is no condemnation now for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1). Saying that there is no condemnation, certainly eliminates the flames of purgatory.
Another passage which clearly excludes the idea of purgatory is, their sins and transgressions I will remember no more (Hebrews 10:17). If, as the Bible says, God no longer remembers the sins of those who are in Christ, He does not punish them for these sins. To do so would be saying that Christ had not made full payment for them and that God the Father still remembered them. (See also Romans 5:8-11; Hebrews 10:14-18; Psalm 103:12).
Anyone who does not believe that Christ has completely saved him, has not completely trusted Christ to save him. That is, he does not believe that Christ's sacrifice has paid for all of his sins, and thinks he must pay for some of them himself. However, we are saved when we stop trusting what we can do, and start trusting Christ to save us.
The idea that Christ's sacrifice is not sufficient to cleanse us from all of our sins would condemn a great sinner such as the thief who was crucified with Jesus to suffer a long time in purgatory if not for all eternity in hell! Instead, there was nothing left over that Christ's death on the Cross did not cover. When the thief placed his trust in Christ, Jesus said to him, I assure you: this day you will be with me in paradise (Luke 23:43).
If purgatory existed, and the mass helped people to get out, the rich would have a tremendous advantage by being able to pay for masses to shorten their suffering. The poor instead, would be left to the mercy of the occasional priest who might say an unpaid mass for them. One ex-priest wrote, "If we really believed that the mass would save people from the flames of purgatory, would we make them pay for it? I would even save a dog if I saw one in a fire, and I would never even think of asking to be paid!"
Purgatory was evidently a pagan idea. Virgil, the pagan Latin poet who lived 70 - 19 B.C. divided the departed souls into three different places in his writings: One for the good, one for the damned, and a third where the less bad could pay for their sins. Since the idea of purgatory existed outside of the church before it came into the church, it is probable that it was brought in by contact with pagans like Virgil. There was a great influx of non-Biblical ideas into the church around 300 A.D. when the Roman Emperor Constantine took many unsaved people in as members of the church.
In any event, there is no mention of purgatory in the Bible. Some would try, however, to make the idea sound somewhat Biblical by referring to 2 Maccabees 12:41-45, a passage in one of the apocryphal books written between the times of the Old and New Testaments. These books were never accepted as part of the Hebrew Old Testament, nor quoted in the New Testament, but they are included in the Catholic Bible, though usually with an explanation that they are of a less inspired category. Apart from this passage in 2 Maccabees, the apocrypha is little used by the Catholic church to support a doctrinal position.
It is important to notice that this passage does not speak of purgatory at all, but actually condemns idolatry, particularly the practice of wearing little images on a necklace or such. Hebrew soldiers were found wearing this sort of thing after a battle, and their buddies, on making this discovery, realized that they had died in the sin of idolatry. They then counseled prayer for their souls. The Roman Catholic position is that prayer for them would have been unnecessary if they were in heaven and useless if they were in hell, so there must be another place. The logic seems good, but the result contradicts the clear teaching of the inspired Scripture. Contradicting inspired Scripture with a philosophical response based on an apparent inference from the Apocrypha is a very weak argument indeed. The very word "Apocrypha," which comes from the Greek word for hidden, has come to mean "false," or "of doubtful authorship."
“And Jesus answered them, “See that no one leads you astray. For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray.”—Matthew 24
“For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.”—Matthew 24
“For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds.”—2 Cor. 11:14
“The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing.”—2 Thess. 2:9-10
“But to the rest of you in Thyatira, who do not hold this teaching, who have not learned what some call the deep things of Satan, to you I say, I do not lay on you any other burden. Only hold fast what you have until I come.”—Revelation 2:24
Etc.
“He takes what is true. The absolute truth of God. He uses the truth of God to gain souls. It’s the little bit of subtle twisting of Scripture that gives him a score.”
Well said. This long thread has many textbook examples.
One theme that deceived persons ply is to cloak themselves in gentility and agreement and paint a protestant (lol) as devoid of the fruit of the Spirit, argumentative, divisive. Yet their love’s a liar, not holding to the TRUTH.
The Spirit of God is the Spirit of TRUTH! He doesn’t “come in by another way” such as the occult New Age and its channeled messages. Vassula Ryden is the topic of these latests post but pick your poison...false teachers preaching ANOTHER JESUS and A DIFFERENT GOSPEL are growing exponentially.
Oh, they’re all so nice and reasonable. That mean ole John said don’t even bid them godspeed. Where’s his LOVE? Or for that matter, Paul’s:
“Now I urge you, brethren, keep your eye on those who cause dissensions and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you learned, and turn away from them. For such men are slaves, not of our Lord Christ but of their own appetites; and by their smooth and flattering speech they deceive the hearts of the unsuspecting.”—Romans 16:17-18
Satan knows Scripture, and uses it skillfully to draw us AWAY into the fantastic instead of the long haul of FAITH WITHOUT SEEING (which God highly commends).
Non Sequitor, typical non-Catholic dodge and switch the subject when you have lost. Maybe you should take your own bait.
And the opposite for those who don't.
Have you ever seen National Treasure with Nicolas Cage?
There is a secret message hidden on the Declaration of Independence, but to see it, they had to use special glasses.
Not only that, the hidden in (not so) plain sight secret message was revealed only if they used the right lenses on the special glasses.
Otherwise, any other and you would only see the Declaration, important, true...but not the 'rest of the story'.
For my understanding, I think the special glasses and the right lenses that together reveal the whole truth that's written work as the Father/Law and the Son/Love, respectively.
When they're used together, they reveal the hidden truths behind the written truth so that all is revealed.
You have to have both used together or you only see the written word.
Important, yes It is indeed(!), but not the whole story, hence the errors and the many interpretations, the early splits, and the reasons for them, and still the same arguments and arguing now.
The glasses work great, but the lenses aren't set quite right yet, so the hidden meaning is still missing.
“When they’re used together, they reveal the hidden truths behind the written truth so that all is revealed.”
New Age gobbledygook. The Spirit doesn’t lead one to truth alien to THE Truth. Jesus spoke in parables in part as a judgment, but He has spoken plainly to us by the Spirit. It is the GOSPEL that is veiled to those who are perishing.
This includes false teachers who promote another Gospel that appeals to PRIDE and a desire to be a possessor of secret knowledge. Poor misunderstood us, we had no choice but to listen to the Light, we were scared at first (clue!) but over time we accepted it.
Straight talk: Your enamoring of Vassula Ryden is a testimony of poor discernment, not enlightenment. Sorry if that seems mean, but you are already carried away and seemingly impervious to correction (circling the wagons). Your choice, but since this is a free forum I’m gonna throw in my two cents worth in the hopes that you’ll just say NO to the offerings in the “side menu-within-a-menu”.
That said, thanks for inspiring me to pick up my guitar!
“The Spirit of God is the Spirit of TRUTH! He doesn’t “come in by another way” such as the occult New Age and its channeled messages. Vassula Ryden is the topic of these latests post but pick your poison...false teachers preaching ANOTHER JESUS and A DIFFERENT GOSPEL are growing exponentially.”
It is alarming, Avenir. Occultism is everywhere these days. It is all around, all the time, and packaged so prettily. It’s such a smooth and seductive message that FEELS so good.
Admittedly, it took me a long while to get it through my own thick skull that there is nothing I can do but humbly and thankfully receive His grace which came at the highest price ever paid. There is absolutely nothing else anyone can do but flee to Yeshua to be covered by the grace only He could secure for us. That route seems to be too simple for some and so they feel they must add to it. For others, it’s not exciting enough.
New Age BS is simply a smooth road to hell with beautiful scenery and lovely music to keep one dull and distracted until the final destination is reached.
Things are moving at a fast pace.
Blessings, Avenir.
Bless you, too. Thanks for your clarity.
“If anyone says “follow me” do not listen.”
Ouch. Care to retract that? :-)
Thanks for the reply, GBA.
“My understanding is that the second one is covered all He said in that same paragraph and prior. He already covered it, so He moved on.”
I don’t understand. Where was the second one covered?
Welcome to the FR RF.
It’s eye opening what Catholics believe, isn’t it?
It’s uncannily like the rape/incest argument for abortion.
“If anyone says “follow me” do not listen.”
If you follow anyone, you are going the wrong direction as if you want to find Jesus and Our Father you must go within. To the extent that you have surrendered your authority to another human, it is not yours to surrender within.
You’re preaching a salvation based on works then.
If you don’t continue in whatever, you are lost.
Jesus said He would not lose ANY that the Father gave Him.
We are saved by faith and kept by the power of God, not our own works.
Thanks for trying, you two.
People need to be warned about this stuff.
Some will listen, some won’t but would rather have their ears tickled and follow experience than the word of God.
The material, otoh, isn't mine, just something I've found that has motivated me to read and study Scripture more than anything else has in my life to date.
That is my experience and I offer them both for that reason. Given the times, I take the warnings written in TLIG very seriously. He ain't kidding around. About this time of Grace or about what follows.
Thanks for the advice and no offense taken, no matter how intended. I assume that all is meant for my good and vice versa is true from me. It's a very high level good to pray for each other's understanding, grace and forgiveness, even more so than for our own.
Besides, from what I've learned early in these Purgatory discussions a believer is forgiven no matter what, right? So...why worry? I absolutely BELIEVE in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
You're welcome about the guitar!
Based upon all I've read, I think we have made ourselves, others and our creations into our own personal idols and placed them/ourselves before Him as own personal objets d' art to worship with abandon.
(Can't imagine a reason why He would object. He's such a fan and admirer of human creations and achievements.)
I'm 100% sure you know your Bible better than I ever will, so I had to look it up. I didn't know what a graven image was.
Here is a possible meaning:
Question: "What is a graven image?"Please understand that I am out of my depth in this realm, never having been to Sunday school or Catechism or anything close to it, nor was I raised in a religious home or by believers.Answer: The phrase “graven image” comes from the King James Version and is first found in Exodus 20:4 in the second of the Ten Commandments. The Hebrew word translated “graven image” means literally “an idol.”
This is a handicap, true, but it is also liberating in a way for the same reason.
I have not been formally indoctrinated into an organized religion's educational and belief systems and have nothing to unlearn, either.
These are the common complaints of one side for the other in the Protestant v Catholic feud, so I figure it's a wash for me one way or the other.
You have been kind and gracious. It’s appreciated, GBA.
I was trying to point out that the 2nd Commandment has been removed. The 10th Commandment was mangled into 2 commandments to make up for the removal.
Graven image, carved image, statue, etc. God says “No” and absolutely not in the removed command. We are not to make nor bow to such. Nor are we to take away or add to His word.
You are blessed if you have not been indoctrinated by any religious institution. I hope you never will be. I wasn’t either and it saved me a load of hurt and heartache, as attested by those who’ve had to come out of certain places that they really and truly believed were of God.
It’s simple, GBA. Just Him, His Word, His grace. Anything beyond that is asking for things not of Him.
Some of your posts startled me, and that’s why I said in one to please be careful for your soul. Deadly deception is everywhere.
May God guide you, GBA.
I agree that people need to be warned, Metmom. Seems that time is running short. Does it feel that way to you?
If one person listens, it will have been worth everyone’s efforts. God bless you for yours.
I’m sorry, t&R, but I think you missed my point.
You said, “If anyone says “follow me” do not listen.”
I follow THE One who said, “Follow me.” :-)
Best regards.
This from a poster that uses a picture of Jesus to bash non Catholics.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3322581/posts?page=675#675
Blaspheme.
You are wrong and your accusation is wrong.
For shame verga.
Read the Gospel of John.
It’s the fourth book in the New Testament.
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