Posted on 08/09/2015 11:06:27 AM PDT by Old Yeller
The Bible never speaks of a place where one can go to be purified of his sin. Rather, it always speaks of a Person to whom we can go to be purified: Jesus Christ. God tells us that those who refuse to trust Christ to cleanse them from their sins are condemned: Whoever believes in Him avoids condemnation, but whoever does not believe is already condemned for not believing in the name of God's only Son (John 3:18). There are only two choices: Whoever believes in the Son has life eternal. Whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but must endure the wrath of God (John 3:36; See also Revelation 20:15; Luke 16:19-31, especially verse 26). Anyone who accepts Christ is completely saved: There is no condemnation now for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1). Saying that there is no condemnation, certainly eliminates the flames of purgatory.
Another passage which clearly excludes the idea of purgatory is, their sins and transgressions I will remember no more (Hebrews 10:17). If, as the Bible says, God no longer remembers the sins of those who are in Christ, He does not punish them for these sins. To do so would be saying that Christ had not made full payment for them and that God the Father still remembered them. (See also Romans 5:8-11; Hebrews 10:14-18; Psalm 103:12).
Anyone who does not believe that Christ has completely saved him, has not completely trusted Christ to save him. That is, he does not believe that Christ's sacrifice has paid for all of his sins, and thinks he must pay for some of them himself. However, we are saved when we stop trusting what we can do, and start trusting Christ to save us.
The idea that Christ's sacrifice is not sufficient to cleanse us from all of our sins would condemn a great sinner such as the thief who was crucified with Jesus to suffer a long time in purgatory if not for all eternity in hell! Instead, there was nothing left over that Christ's death on the Cross did not cover. When the thief placed his trust in Christ, Jesus said to him, I assure you: this day you will be with me in paradise (Luke 23:43).
If purgatory existed, and the mass helped people to get out, the rich would have a tremendous advantage by being able to pay for masses to shorten their suffering. The poor instead, would be left to the mercy of the occasional priest who might say an unpaid mass for them. One ex-priest wrote, "If we really believed that the mass would save people from the flames of purgatory, would we make them pay for it? I would even save a dog if I saw one in a fire, and I would never even think of asking to be paid!"
Purgatory was evidently a pagan idea. Virgil, the pagan Latin poet who lived 70 - 19 B.C. divided the departed souls into three different places in his writings: One for the good, one for the damned, and a third where the less bad could pay for their sins. Since the idea of purgatory existed outside of the church before it came into the church, it is probable that it was brought in by contact with pagans like Virgil. There was a great influx of non-Biblical ideas into the church around 300 A.D. when the Roman Emperor Constantine took many unsaved people in as members of the church.
In any event, there is no mention of purgatory in the Bible. Some would try, however, to make the idea sound somewhat Biblical by referring to 2 Maccabees 12:41-45, a passage in one of the apocryphal books written between the times of the Old and New Testaments. These books were never accepted as part of the Hebrew Old Testament, nor quoted in the New Testament, but they are included in the Catholic Bible, though usually with an explanation that they are of a less inspired category. Apart from this passage in 2 Maccabees, the apocrypha is little used by the Catholic church to support a doctrinal position.
It is important to notice that this passage does not speak of purgatory at all, but actually condemns idolatry, particularly the practice of wearing little images on a necklace or such. Hebrew soldiers were found wearing this sort of thing after a battle, and their buddies, on making this discovery, realized that they had died in the sin of idolatry. They then counseled prayer for their souls. The Roman Catholic position is that prayer for them would have been unnecessary if they were in heaven and useless if they were in hell, so there must be another place. The logic seems good, but the result contradicts the clear teaching of the inspired Scripture. Contradicting inspired Scripture with a philosophical response based on an apparent inference from the Apocrypha is a very weak argument indeed. The very word "Apocrypha," which comes from the Greek word for hidden, has come to mean "false," or "of doubtful authorship."
God's word says NOTHING about 24 hours...time is measured by those present and He was the only one present and 24 hours is meaningless to HIM...The first day was His and could have lasted a million years...time is of no concern to God.
That is true, and faith in Christ means follow the church which He Himself founded....the Catholic church...if you deny His church, you deny Him.
Make no mistake, souls in Purgatory ARE saved by the Cross....they are a little imperfect and require some "cleaning up" to enter Heaven....they know that they are saved and glory in the knowledge that they will soon be with Christ.
43 And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection,
44 (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,)
45 And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them.
46 It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.
If this information below is correct, Tertullian (230) is the first to mention prayers for the dead.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer_for_the_dead#Judaism
Not once did Jesus, Paul, Peter, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, James record prayers for or the admonission to pray for the dead.
Oh, come on...they are the most entertaining things on here. Seeing how others think and reason is more than interesting sometimes requiring a face palm, but always making one proud of having paid attention in Catechism class!!!
ALL Christians believed that until one thousand six hundred years after the fact when someone decided that they could teach otherwise.....when you decide to go off on your own and reinterpret Christian teachings, you miss out on a lot.....like Transubstantiation for example.....Catholics have the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ in the Eucharist....protestants have a cracker and grape juice.
What "cleaning up" is needed when we have this from Paul in Colossians 2:9-14?
For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10and
in Him you have been made complete,
and He is the head over all rule and authority; 11and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; 12having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
13When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him,
having forgiven us all our transgressions,
14having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us;
and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
If this is insufficient.....then nothing remains that can be done to "clean up" someone.
Debate is interesting, vile filthy attacks are not.
On this there is complete agreement. I learn more from these discussions than in a lot of other studies I've been in.
Then give us the Scripture that supports purgatory from the “COMPLETE” Bible.
Your say so that it’s in there isn’t enough.
I agree....leave all the name calling out and just stay with the debate part using facts and resources.
“ALL Christians believed that until one thousand six hundred years after the fact when someone decided that they could teach otherwise.....when you decide to go off on your own and reinterpret Christian teachings, you miss out on a lot.....like Transubstantiation for example.....Catholics have the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ in the Eucharist....protestants have a cracker and grape juice. “
Thanks for sharing your beliefs.
If you go back before the first Christians, Jews did not recognize the Apocrypha.
As to the rest, I am aware that Catholics believe in transubstantiation. Hundreds of millions of other Christians do not.
Best.
What was St. Paul talking about when he referred to “making up in our bodies what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ”?
Christians are perfect when they are in Christ, when they are born of the Spirit. The new nature is perfect.
The only sin left is in the flesh, and when this body of flesh dies, all that’s left is the perfect new nature.
LXX was long before the first Christians.
yes the republican party..sigh..
Consider the source...when you don't have a logical argument, you resort to name calling and insults....makes you feel better!!!
Martin Luther did...in fact he had the capability of performing it....somewhere along the line you lost it....TRAGIC......if Christ said it, did it, and gave HIS CHURCH THE AUTHORITY AND POWER TO DO IT.....WHY WOULD ANYONE NOT BELIEVE IT???????????? whoops, hit the caps button
The Hebrew indicates a 24 hour day as we understand it.
He wasn't talking about suffering for HIS OWN body or to pay for anyone's sins.
And the word *purgatory* comes in exactly where?
Also from Colossians 1......
Colossians 1:13-14 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
We HAVE redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
We are already transferred into Christ's kingdom, past tense. We HAVE salvation already, which of necessity means that our sins are already forgiven.
If they weren't forgiven, we wouldn't have salvation.
If we have to pay for our own sins, when what are we being saved FROM?
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.