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To: LearsFool; daniel1212; metmom; boatbums; redleghunter; aMorePerfectUnion; Gamecock
I think what you are teaching here is a form of Campbellism.  Campbell was a man with many man-made opinions, often derived it seems from taking in too much of the strident rationalism of his era.  This doctrine that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is essentially nothing more than our own response of obedience to the Scriptures is just a man-made opinion that has no sound basis in Scripture.  Rather, it bows to human rationalism, almost it seems making our own obedience to the word a virtual substitute for the supernatural operation of the third Person of the Trinity in the life of the believer. It is utterly impossible to reconcile it with the teaching of many Scriptures. One example:
And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
(Romans 5:5)
Notice the passive voice. Our hearts do not create the love of God. The Holy Spirit is the actor.  The love of God comes to us through His work in us.  You can say this is all by us sitting around and hearing the word, and the word certainly plays an active role.  But Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, does not frame this as an entirely intellectual or even volitional process that produces obedience.  Paul knows the language of obedience, and often speaks of the operation of the word of God on the mind.  But in his inspired words here he doesn't use that language, but instead portrays the Holy Spirit as an active Person Who has been given to us, and is acting on our hearts to fill them with the love of God, which love human intellect can neither contain nor even faintly begin to describe.  

As here:
Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God. For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake. And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost:
(1 Thessalonians 1:4-6)
In which we see Paul making a clear distinction between a Gospel in word only versus a Gospel come in both words and in Holy Spirit power.  If the word and the Spirit were the functionally same thing, there'd be no point in making the distinction.

And you see they follow Paul, and follow Jesus as well, in which it is clear we can follow good teachers who teach us how to follow Jesus, and when we do so, and suffer affliction for it, we still have that one-of-a-kind joy that comes only from the Holy Spirit.

But what about obedience? Remember this?
Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not. So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.
(Luke 17:9-10)
Obedience without the life of the Spirit is nothing. Jesus is basically saying that even if you do everything your master tells you to do, so what?  That's what servants are supposed to do.  Nothing special.  But there is much more to being a believer:
He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
(John 7:38-39)
This is a vital union, a walking with God, a real, personal communion with the Spirit of the living God.  This is much more than simple, mechanical obedience.  This love is the response of a transformed heart, truly full of the Holy Spirit.

Perhaps we can explore this by looking at the other end of the spectrum.  A demon is a spiritual being.  Yet such beings in Scripture are said to possess their victim, and when they are confronted with divine power, they "go out" of their victim.  Here it is incontrovertible that spiritual beings can indeed cohabit a human dwelling, and not in the sense of learning and doing bad things because of some spoken or written word, but in terms of a dramatic level of direct spiritual control over the person who is the "host."

My point is this.  In my previous post, the Scriptures recited persistently use language that speaks of the Spirit indwelling us in the sense of a living fellowship within our hearts and minds, such an intimate relationship that obedience by itself does not account for the whole thing. For example, if the word is, in effect, the only Holy Spirit one acknowledges, how in Heaven or earth can we do this to Him?:
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
(Ephesians 4:30)
Words do not grieve. Persons grieve.  He says right there we have that seal of the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption, so He is not going anywhere, even when we grieve Him.  This is entirely the language of vital union, two people handcuffed to each other for life, and believe me when the Holy Spirit is grieved with some unresolved sin in a believer there is no peace for that person until there is repentance.

In sum, Campbellism appears to me to be a kind of radical cessationism, the idea that the Holy Spirit has totally left off any involvement with believers other than leaving them with the text of Scripture. But that is simply not possible under any plain reading of Scripture. God does not change, and has not given us mere moral persuasion to keep us company in this life while we wait for His return, but this:
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
(Romans 8:15)
Amen that.

Peace,

SR



42 posted on 07/31/2015 10:34:52 PM PDT by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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To: Springfield Reformer
Paul knows the language of obedience, and often speaks of the operation of the word of God on the mind. But in his inspired words here he doesn't use that language, but instead portrays the Holy Spirit as an active Person Who has been given to us, and is acting on our hearts to fill them with the love of God, which love human intellect can neither contain nor even faintly begin to describe.

One has to wonder, then, why Paul bothered to make such an exhaustive case for the gospel in Romans (and elsewhere). Let's look again at Rom. 5:5, noting that he doesn't start there, nor does he stop there.

"And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us."

Note the use of "because" to explain why our hope maketh not ashamed. The love of God has been shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost. How did that happen? We see the answer in the next several verses, as Paul explains what the love of God did:

"For while we were yet weak, in due season Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: for peradventure for the good man some one would even dare to die. But God commendeth his own love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him. For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life; and not only so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation."

The love of God is plainly seen in Paul's summary here, and seeing it makes us "rejoice in the hope of the glory of God." Did he get this from intellectual pondering or discussions at the Aeropagus? No, the Holy Spirit revealed it to him, and he preached it to the lost so it could be shed abroad in their hearts.

In which we see Paul making a clear distinction between a Gospel in word only versus a Gospel come in both words and in Holy Spirit power. If the word and the Spirit were the functionally same thing, there'd be no point in making the distinction.

From the beginning in Acts 1, we see that the apostles were to be equipped for their task of testifying to the resurrection and preaching the gospel:

"But ye shall receive power, when the Holy Spirit is come upon you: and ye shall be my witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea and Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth." - Acts 1:8

The fulfillment of that promise, their equipping for the task, comes in Acts 2. And throughout Acts we see God authenticating these preachers by signs and wonders through the Holy Spirit, just as He had done with His Son. The gospel came "not in word only, but also in power". As intended, this was convincing to the Thessalonians. Who among them wouldn't rejoice at such a gospel?

This is much more than simple, mechanical obedience.

Indeed it is, and I wouldn't argue otherwise. In Ps. 119 (and elsewhere), we see the joy David found in studying and obeying the word of God. Did he have an indwelling of the Holy Spirit? Did he have "a real, personal communion with the Spirit of the living God"?

Words do not grieve. Persons grieve. He says right there we have that seal of the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption, so He is not going anywhere, even when we grieve Him.

The Holy Spirit is indeed a person. And disciples are sealed (authenticated, attested to, preserved) by Him. How does this happen? How does the child of God avoid grieving the Holy Spirit? And how did he become authenticated? The answer is found throughout that chapter (your excerpt of v. 30 falls right in the midst of it), in the warnings and instructions Paul gives the Ephesian Christians, contrasting them with the ungodly, those who are not sealed by the Holy Ghost:

"But ye did not so learn Christ; if so be that ye heard him, and were taught in him, even as truth is in Jesus..." (vv. 20-21)

In sum, Campbellism appears to me to be a kind of radical cessationism, the idea that the Holy Spirit has totally left off any involvement with believers other than leaving them with the text of Scripture.

If you wish to debate Campbell, feel free to do so. But I ain't him. Nor am I a disciple of his, but of Christ's.

The text of Scripture is nothing to take lightly. It is the very word of the King. To disparage, reject, ignore, or be ashamed of it is to do likewise to the King (Luke 6:47, Mark 8:38, etc.) God spoke, and the worlds came into existence.

"...so shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." - Is. 51:16

"...how shall we escape, if we neglect so great a salvation? which having at the first been spoken through the Lord, was confirmed unto us by them that heard; God also bearing witness with them, both by signs and wonders, and by manifold powers, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to his own will." - Heb. 2:3

God has spoken to us through His Son and through those whom He inspired and authenticated by the Holy Spirit. We disparage God's message to our peril.

"For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for he giveth not the Spirit by measure." - John 3:34

"For the word of God is living, and active, and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and quick to discern the thoughts and intents of the heart." - Heb. 4:12

This word, delivered to us by God, by the Son, and by the Spirit, guides the disciple, guards him, saves him, seals him, fills him, gives him joy, and on and on.

This is God doing it. And Jesus doing it. And the Spirit doing it.

This is God living in him. And Jesus abiding in him. And the Sprit dwelling in him.
44 posted on 08/01/2015 7:27:29 AM PDT by LearsFool (Real men get their wives and children to heaven.)
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To: Springfield Reformer

>>This is a vital union, a walking with God, a real, personal communion with the Spirit of the living God. This is much more than simple, mechanical obedience. This love is the response of a transformed heart, truly full of the Holy Spirit.<<

Well said and Amen.


57 posted on 08/01/2015 9:55:32 PM PDT by redleghunter (Truly my soul waiteth upon God: from him cometh my salvation. He only is my rock and my salvation)
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