[[With all respects, Bob, RE: your post 69, the History Channel is not the place you should go to get to the bottom line on this issue.]]
I donb’t go there for biblical insight- I sinmply said they weren’t too far off from actual biblical texts- and it was interesting to see a visual of how things ‘could be’ during the tribulation- that’s all
[[The tribulation is not the wrath of God, the wrath of God is poured out on the ungodly at the end of the tribulation...]]
The wrath is unleashed during all the seals- not just after the sixth is broken- there are two schools of thought here- one beign that the seals up until the 6’th are the ‘wrath of the lamb’ then specifically become the wrath of God after that- God will use the persecution by Satan as judgement on the people,.
The tribulation begins after the hurch is caught up- Israel is the one that will undergo the ‘refining’ during that period according to some- it is the ‘time of Jacob’s trouble’- when they “Pass under the Rod; “ Eze 26:34 - In Eze. 22:19-21 we see God bringing them into a ‘metling pot’ to ‘refine them’ during this time because the strayed from Him all these years
The wrath of the lamb is set upon the earth’s inhabitants from the first seal onward- and this happens during the tribulation- or rather is the tribulation period- The whole perios is judgement and wrath- which God states we will be spared from because we are not under His wrath
I’ll respond more tonight- too tired right now to think-
I’ve gone back and forth over whether the church will have to endure the tribulation, and heard from many fine teachers both pro and con- Both sides have compelling arguments, however I believe pretrib wins the day with a bit stronger evidence In the end
Try reading the 2nd coming passages in the NT as if there was only one return (see Biggirl’s post 161), it is quite an eye opener.
It’s really quite simple, the disciples asked Jesus what would be sign of his coming in the olivet discourse (Matt. 24, Mark 13),, he answered by giving many signs, but only one return... and it to take place “immediately after the tribulation of those days,” Matt. 24:29-31.
After this, the notion that there was a coming in addition to the one after the tribulation never entered any of the NT writers minds. In each and every case, when one of them touched on the 2nd coming, like in 1st and 2nd Thessalonians for instance, it was always the same one Jesus had spoken of in Matt. 24:29-31.
If Paul, who came along later, were to have been introducing an additional coming to the one in the olivet discourse, he would have been going against what Jesus had said. He would also have used very specific language setting forth this new thing, “Jesus is to return in two stages, not one like you have been led to believe,” or something similar, which he did not.
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Nonsense!
The Seals are the progression of human events from the close of the apostolic age at the death of John, to the last trump. The purpose of the seals is to break Satan's power on the Earth, one step at a time.
If there is wrath in the seals, it is man's wrath.
It is Yeshua that is opening those seals, as John says, because he was the only one righteous enough to do it.
[1] And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
[2] And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
[3] And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
[4] And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
[5] And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
[6] And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
[7] And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
[8] And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
[9] And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
[10] And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
[11] And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
[12] Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
[13] And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
[14] And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.
All of God's wrath comes after the last trump.
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To wit:
Ps. 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Ac. 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Ac. 13:35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Though standing in for us, in our stead, and bearing our sins in His body on the tree, his body--though by man wracked, torn, slapped, whipped, bruised, abraded, punctured, pricked, cut, and pierced right through for the pericardium to burst under the pressure of massive heart failure; and by God the felt pain as of abandonment of fellowship and as well as roasting of His flesh, offered in sacrifice, in the Lake of Fire--has suffered fully to assuage the punishment due us, His Spiritual Body.
That means no further effect of God's wrath is due us, for which reason prior to the outset of His final struggle with the god of this world and his human minions, including the antichrist man of sin, the Mighty God will withdraw His Ambassadors, the Body of Christ (2 Cor. 5:19-21), and His Holy Spirit in them, for there will be no more terms of reconciliation when the hostilities have begun.
Doubtless the first half of the heptad of years of tribulation will be given to the earthlings to see just what the antichrist will do when the Satanic government is no longer restrained and any holy influence is no longer effective; but then in the last half God will pour out His wrath that also has been restrained lest His Spirit-born children suffer that which the servant Jesus has entirely borne for them.
I hope this makes some sense to you. I've been reading through the responses through from the beginning, and up to this point I have not seen anyone bring out the two arguments of (1) God not permitting His Son's Spiritual Body, the Church, endure the corruption of the seven years of the tribulation, and (2) the necessity of withdrawing His Ambassadors, the regenerated Spirit-filled believer-disciples of the Anointed Lord Jesus Christ, whose citizenship is in His Heaven.