On Same-Sex Marriage, Catholics Are Leading the Way in Legalization

New York Times ^ | 05/27/2015 | Frank Bruni

[SeekAndFind]

Take a look at this list of countries: Belgium, Canada, Spain, Argentina, Portugal, Brazil, France, Uruguay, Luxembourg and Ireland. Name two things that they have in common.

They don’t share a continent, obviously. Or a language.

But in all of them, the Roman Catholic Church has more adherents, at least nominally, than any other religious denomination does.

And all of them belong to the vanguard of 20 nations that have decided to make same-sex marriage legal.

In fact, countries with a Catholic majority or plurality make up half of those where two men or two women can now wed or will soon be able to.

Ireland, obviously, is the freshest addition to the list. It’s also, in some ways, the most remarkable one. It’s the first country to approve same-sex marriage by a popular referendum. The margin wasn’t even close. About 62 percent of voters embraced marriage equality.

And they did so despite a past of great fealty to the Catholic Church’s official teachings on, for example, contraception, which was outlawed in Ireland until 1980, and abortion, which remains illegal in most circumstances.

Irish voters nonetheless rejected the church’s formal opposition to same-sex marriage. This act of defiance was described, accurately, as an illustration of church leaders’ loosening grip on the country.

But in falling out of line with the Vatican, Irish people are actually falling in line with their Catholic counterparts in other Western countries, including the United States.

[ansel12]

That post didn’t make any sense.

I think you want to argue with the guy who thinks that whoever excommunicates Catholics, has excommunicated so many of America’s leading Catholic politicians.

[ansel12]

Yup. Sadly, in my experience, Socialist economics generally trumps values with Catholic voters in most cases. Particularly when Church leadership is not speaking out on those issues. Democrat Congressmen who never met an abortion they wouldn't vote for get re-elected 9 or 10 times in heavily Catholic districts because "they're for da Workin' Man!" or "my union newsletter told me to".

It is easy to see why that doesn't change, when you read threads like this one.

This is supposed to be a thread of pro-life, anti-gay agenda, conservatives, even activists, yet almost every single one of the Catholics posting, are fighting tooth and nail to deny that what you just described, even exists.

[Jeff Chandler]

If Catholicism has had half a millennium to shape culture and this is the best it can do

You are asking the wrong question. The question is one which should be asked whenever we witness a Christian of questionable character: How much worse would he be without the tempering influence of the Church?

That being said, it is not Holy Mother the Church which is to blame, but her shepherds, the clergy — from top to bottom — who are feckless and weak and painfully ignorant of economics.

[mountainbunny]

Two can play the blame game.

Protestants originally led the charge for divorce.

As a Catholic, I’m still only as married or divorced as the Vatican says I am.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“It’s not the Catholic Church’s doctrine that is the problem, it is the adherents themselves who are the problem.”

That seems a strange statement.

It makes the doctrine into just a slogan.
It makes the Catholic denomination marginally influential in the lives of those it counts as Catholics.
If the teachings of the Catholic church don’t change lives, in what sense is it valid??

[miss marmelstein]

Yes, you’re getting ready to hit the abuse button I’m sure. You abuse and make attacks on my religion every day and get away with it. And, again, your last post didn’t make any sense.

Also, I don’t buy into this “all of Europe is Catholic” so it must be Catholicism that is to blame for the godless west. That’s ridiculous. There are plenty of Protestant sects and denominations as well as Muslims, Jews and atheists who live in the west and vote for evil.

[SeekAndFind]

RE: It makes the Catholic denomination marginally influential in the lives of those it counts as Catholics.

Therein lies the problem.

How does one become Catholic anyway? Well, you have to be baptized into the faith. And when do the vast majority of Catholics get baptized? You know the answer — when they were INFANTS.

The mere act of being baptized does not guarantee a changed life, especially when you were baptized without willfully confessing your faith.

[SeekAndFind]

RE: Are we now so parochial that we think the Pope knows who Andrew Cuomo is? Three-quarters of people in New York State don’t know who he is.

According to this site:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05678a.htm

WHO CAN EXCOMMUNICATE?

Excerpt:

Therefore, whether excommunications be a jure (by the law) or ab homine (under form of sentence or precept), they may come from the pope alone or a general council for the entire Church; from the provincial council for an ecclesiastical province; from the bishop for his diocese; from the prelate nullius for quasi-diocesan territories; and from regular prelates for religious orders. Moreover, anyone can excommunicate who, by virtue of his office, even when delegated, has contentious jurisdiction in the forum externum; for instance, papal legates, vicars capitular, and vicars-general.

So, based on the above explanation, I would say that we do not need the Pope to do the excommunication if a Catholic is excommunicable.

The Cardinal could do it.

[ansel12]

More rambling.

I think you lost track of who you are posting to and attacking, you need to go address someone who is saying that “all of Europe is Catholic”, and supposedly attacking your “religion”, which I always thought was the Christian religion, with you being in the Catholic denomination.

Your post posts are getting too weird to make out.

[Mrs. Don-o]

Actually, there is a strong positive correlation between weekly (or more) church attendance and more conservative political and social views, in every denomination including Catholicism.

And a strong correlation between monthly, biennial, or less frequent church attendance, and liberal political and social views.

[ansel12]

Well, that’s nice, but it doesn’t change the national Catholic vote.

Nor the Catholic vote in Ireland.

As I said in post 5 “Church attendance is just another part of being a baptized member of the Catholic denomination, just as voting democrat is for Catholics in America, and whatever they vote for in the Catholic nations of Latin America and Mexico.”

[Religion Moderator]

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.

[markomalley]

Great article. Now let's look at the facts:

Countries where sodomite marriage is legal -- total of 22 countries -- or parts of countries:

Country	% Catholic	Legalized Year
Argentina	92% (20% practicing)	2010
Belgium	75%	2003
Brazil	64.6%	2013
Canada	38.8%	2005
Denmark	<1%	2012
Finland	<1%	2015
France	~51% (official polls not taken)	2013
Iceland	3.5%	2010
Ireland	84.7%	2015
Luxembourg	87%	2014
Mexico	82.7%	2009 - 2014 (by state)
Netherlands	28%	2001
New Zealand	11.6%	2013
Norway	1.8%	2008
Portugal	81%	2010
Slovenia	57.8%	2015
South Africa	7.1%	2006
Spain	94%	2005
Sweden	<1%	2009
United Kingdom	8.6%	2012 England & Wales 2012 Scotland not legal Northern Ireland
United States	23.9%	(varying depending upon state...starting in 2008 moving forward)
Uruguay	47.1%	2013

So 11 out of the 22 countries where it's legal are not majority Catholic (irrespective of how many people are actually "practicing" Catholics or "cultural" Catholics). Doesn't sound like a wide majority (as the author would have us believe).

Bottom line is that it's not quite as simple as the author attempts to make it...when you actually look at the facts. It's disgusting that any Catholic country...or that any Catholic...would support such a perversion.

But we ought to have our facts straight here.

(BTW sources for data: legalization dates and countries where legal are from Wikipedia; % Catholic are from CIA World Fact Book)

[Mrs. Don-o]

Don't do the Lavender Lobby's work for them, Jeff.

From our parish newsletter:

Who is he to judge?

He’s the Pope, that’s who.

"Let's not be naive, we're not talking about a simple political battle; this is a destructive pretension against the plan of God. We are not talking about a mere bill, but rather a machination of the Father of Lies that seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God."
(Archbishop Jorge Bergoglio --- now Pope Francis

“The family is threatened by growing efforts on the part of some to redefine the very institution of marriage. These realities are increasingly under attack from powerful forces which threaten to disfigure God’s plan for creation.”
Pope Francis supporting a February, 2015 referendum in Slovakia.

In this referendum, a majority of Slovakian voters pushed to • define marriage as a union of one man and one woman; • ban same-sex registered partnerships. • require that adoptive parents be married to provide a stable father-and-mother headed family for the adopted children; • establish that parents must be allowed to opt their children out from school classes dealing in sex education and euthanasia.

[Jeff Chandler]

I am just displaying the confusion sewn by our shepherds with their ill-chosen words.

[Mrs. Don-o]

You are helping to transmit and multiply the impact of our shepherds' ill-chosen words.

I'm not saying you're working for "The Advocate," --- not at all, and it's nothing personal --- but you manifest the same set of favorite propaganda points, to the same effect.

[Mrs. Don-o]

U u'z facks.

No fare!

FEELZ BEFORE REALZ!

[Religion Moderator]

"You abuse and make attacks on my religion every day and get away with it."

Please read the guidelines for the Religion Forum.

http://www.freerepublic.com/~religionmoderator/

Pay particular attention to the part about "open threads," the part in bold

Open threads are in a town square format.

Antagonism though not encouraged, should be expected

Posters may argue for or against beliefs, deities, religious authorities, etc. They may tear down other’s beliefs. They may ridicule. “Open” RF debate is often contentious.

It requires thick skin. A poster must be able to make his points while standing his ground, suffering adverse remarks about his beliefs - or letting them roll off his back.

Members of religions which are as much culture as belief sometimes take religious debate personally. If you keep getting your feelings hurt because other posters ridicule or disapprove or hate what you hold dear, then you are too thin-skinned to be involved in “open” RF debate. You should IGNORE “open” RF threads altogether and instead post to RF threads labeled “prayer” “devotional” “caucus” or “ecumenical.”

[miss marmelstein]

That’s personal. And it’s not my fault you cannot write clearly enough for me to understand your posts.

[ansel12]

The article wasn’t about countries that are majority Catholic, it was about countries in which the Catholic denomination is the largest denomination.

“But in all of them, the Roman Catholic Church has more adherents, at least nominally, than any other religious denomination does.”

“It’s the first country to approve same-sex marriage by a popular referendum. The margin wasn’t even close. About 62 percent of voters embraced marriage equality.”

“Catholics in the United States appear to be more, not less, progressive about gay rights than Americans in general are. Catholics in the United States appear to be more, not less, progressive about gay rights than Americans in general are. In an especially ambitious survey conducted over the course of 2014 by the Public Religion Research Institute, about 60 percent of Americans who called themselves Catholic said that they approved of same-sex marriage, versus about 30 percent who didn’t. The spread among all respondents was 54 to 38”

“But seldom does anyone point out that this explanation puts these men in the minority, not majority, of Catholics in the United States. Their stances win them more political favor among Baptists than among Catholics.”