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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
Again, however, you wrest the phrase "fallen from grace" from a statement that declares that those who are "justified by the law" are the ones who do so. Who can be justified by the law? And if you are justified by the law, do you even need grace?

Again, it is not I who am wresting anything, but you ignore the context to make Paul warning believers against something they cannot become, and as applying to someone else but them.

Yet it is because no one can be justified by the law that they are warned against submitting to the Judaizers, for to do so is to fall from grace, supposing that they merit of law-keeping will justify them before God as holy enough for Heaven.

To make Gal. 5:1-4 to mean what you assert, it would basically read,

Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free [though I am not writing to those who were made free], and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage [not that you can be, since Calvinism excludes that]. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing [of course, since I am not writing to believers who were set free then this is not a warning for you]. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you [not you who were set free and stand in grace, though that is whom I addressed], whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace [not that you can fall from grace, as if you were in grace, as you cannot, despite my warning against doing so]. (Galatians 5:1-4)

The redeemed are whose who "through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith," (Galatians 5:5) who But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end," (Hebrews 3:6) repenting when convicted they are not, and "are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul," (Hebrews 10:39) and thus believers are plainly clear warned against doing so.

However, as Calvinism excludes that as a possibility - and there are texts which also support this - then you must exclude such texts from saying what they plainly say, as they contract it. Therefore the real issue is the conclusions of Calvinism in this regard.

But your verses do not really prove what you claim, and leaves you open to attack when we point to such verses that plainly declare that God is the master of salvation from beginning to end.

That God is the master of salvation from beginning to end is true, both in enablement and motivation, as God convicts, draws, opens hearts, grants repentance and faith, (Jn. 6:44; 12:32; Acts 11:18; 16:14; Eph. 2:8,9) so that in conversion man does what he otherwise could not and would not do. And then he works in believers to do His good pleasure. (Phil. 2:13)

But which does not exclude man from being a "steward of the manifold grace of God," (1Pt. 4:10) and receiving the grace of God in vain, as while God elects whom He will, and enables and moves man to believe - which is a response - yet it is manifest that not only does God will all to repent and be saved, (Acts 17:30; 1Tim. 2:4; 2Pt. 3:9) but souls resist the grace of God, though some are given more than others.

Lost souls have enough grace given them that they can resist sin, and know who the true God is and worship Him to some degree, and do by nature the things contained in the Law, and yet become foolish and darkened idolators. (Gn. 4:7; Rm. 1:20,21; 2:14; cf. Acts 10:35) And which are damned for what they themselves did and are culpable for. (Rv.

And believers can grieve the Spirit, and can deny the faith, (1Tim. 5:8) and which does not mean man is the master of salvation from beginning to end, as both lost and saved owe everything to God, and only can do what God enables and allows. And while believers can only believe and walk in faith by grace, and can take no credit, in choosing to deny the faith then they cannot impugn the Almighty. Man cannot boast of believing in Christ, nor can he charge God with iniquity if man chooses to depart from the living God, and God allows it.

Thus the charge that allowing believers to do so - which they are warned against - makes them the master of their salvation, is invalid. If God enables and motivates them to choose to believe, then God is gets the credit, while if He allows them to depart from the faith, then God is still in control. That God could enable and move all souls to believe is true, but that He does not is what is manifest. Likewise that God could move all believers souls to remain in the faith is true, but that He does so renders the warnings against departing from the living God and drawing back unto perdition, making Christ of no effect and falling from grace, to be merely hypothetical.

We do not read the scriptures which command and warn against something and ignore the verses that say that God gives what He commands!

Actually, but holding that "gives" means the called cannot choose to not come to the wedding feast, or abide in Christ, then you must read the scriptures which command and warn against believers denying the faith and departing from grace and the living God and compel them to mean other than what they say, or relegate such to be merely hypothetical.

I must honesty conclude i see such warnings as being given to believers, and am not comfortable relegating such to be merely hypothetical.

304 posted on 05/22/2015 8:51:55 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: daniel1212
Yet it is because no one can be justified by the law that they are warned against submitting to the Judaizers, for to do so is to fall from grace, supposing that they merit of law-keeping will justify them before God as holy enough for Heaven.

"For to do so," but can they? The "do so" is "be justified by the law." That is the literal statement of the verse. It does not say "if you submit to the Judaizers and TRY to be justified by the law, you fall from grace," it says "if you are justified by the law." The best reading is that Paul's meaning is: "If you are justified by the law, you reject grace, but you know that no one can be justified by the law nor be saved without grace."

Now this raises another question: If you merely TRY to be justified by the law, what about those confused Christians who believe that on some level their merit is necessary to preserve their salvation? Clearly, if they are trying to avoid major sins, trying to live better lives, trying to maintain a certain level of faithfulness, and they believe that this is their doing, do all these fall from grace? This would damn every Arminian and Catholic in the world, because all of them contradict the verse that says "It is not of him that wills, or him that runs, but God who has mercy."

(Hebrews 3:6) repenting when convicted they are not, and "are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul," (Hebrews 10:39) and thus believers are plainly clear warned against doing so.

Is there a reason why these verses cannot be read within the context I established in my post 104? Clearly the non-elect may be baptized, formerly enter into the covenant, be illuminated to some degree, taste of the heavenly gifts, approach unto the throne of grace, and yet fall short because he was not of that "good ground" prepared by God for the seed of the Gospel to grow. So that there are those who "pull back" from the grace they received, "deny the faith," resist what graces they have been given and fall into hell, and yet not contradict the verses I used in 104 that explicitly declare that the true Christian never falls away, at least permanently. And on that note, a Christian may certainly fall away for long periods of time, like David, and yet still be given repentance by God at some point.

yet it is manifest that not only does God will all to repent and be saved, (Acts 17:30; 1Tim. 2:4; 2Pt. 3:9) but souls resist the grace of God, though some are given more than others.

See my post 104, and you will see that grace is clearly not given to all people. But in your system, grace indeed must be universal, even if it is not given equally. Because if God does will the salvation of all, then He must offer all men the means to be saved, even if He offers only very basic means. In other words, all these must be given some revelation that Jesus is the Christ, and be given the ability to have faith in him and persevere in that faith! To command all men everywhere to "repent" does that mean He gives this grace to all. And the "all" in Titus can be interpreted as "every kind of men," since he speaks beforehand of Kings and other classes of men, which in fact is a very common usage among the Jews and scripture. In their Talmud they often refer to "every man in the world," or the "whole world," and yet they mean, sometimes, even just the Jews of a single synagogue, or sometimes the Gentile world in general, or all kinds of men in general. And the verse in 2 Peter 3:9, if you follow the pronouns, is spoken to the Elect of God, not of the "they" who are spoken of as being the object of God's wrath.

But which does not exclude man from being a "steward of the manifold grace of God," (1Pt. 4:10)

But to what extent are they stewards? There are many gifts from God, and certainly many of them must be "stewarded" in a sense, but is the gift of salvation held in our hands such that we can hold onto it by our own willing and running? The scripture denies this.

And which are damned for what they themselves did and are culpable for. (Rv.

Of this there is no doubt, but are they given the same revelation that Peter received, not of his or other's "flesh and blood," but from the Father, that Christ is the Messiah? Clearly some are given this, others not.

Man cannot boast of believing in Christ, nor can he charge God with iniquity if man chooses to depart from the living God, and God allows it.

It is always possible to boast of their believing in Christ. To believe in Christ necessarily involves a submitting to Christ, in being humble, in calling oneself sinful, and next in holding on to this faith until the end. If we read the scripture your way, in the parable of the sower, the scripture itself declares that this ground "is good" that preservers to the end. So why withhold from these people who persevere the title of good, it being a quality of their person and not given to them by God? And furthermore, consider this: in your system, you can have two people, each given the same gifts and same proportion of grace, and yet one falls and the other doesn't. What is the difference then? The difference must be in the person. And if there is a difference in the person, it cannot be taught in scripture, as it clearly is, that the only thing that causes men to differ from each other is Grace. Because in this example, the two men HAD the SAME Grace, but they still differed from each other in significant ways.

making Christ of no effect and falling from grace, to be merely hypothetical.

They don't need to be hypothetical, because God does not permit all men to have assurance of their salvation (sometimes He does not give men this peace until very late in their Christian walk), but puts His "fear in them" to keep them holy. See my post 104.

306 posted on 05/22/2015 5:12:50 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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