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To: Dutchboy88

“Not so...Paul is discussing the reason that God loved Jacob and hated Esau and was not unjust in doing so.”

But this is in the context of discussing the concept of “the promise”, God’s election to bless Israel. That’s why Jacob and Esau are discussed, because the promise was given through Jacob, to his posterity, the nation of Israel, before his birth. The individuals are only mentioned to illustrate that the promise was not given based on their merit, as the promise was given before they were born:

“10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.”


“It is because He wants the choice to remain His. That is why He can harden Pharaoh’s heart and have mercy on someone else.”

No, Paul specifically says that it is to demonstrate God’s power to men and to glorify Himself among men:

“7 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.”


“The old saw about this being about “nations” doesn’t wash.”

The entire chapter is speaking of God’s dealings with nations, specifically with the nation of Israel, which is contrasted with other nations like Egypt and Edom, and with the gentiles who were adopted as heirs to Israel’s promise. This is clear from the first verses and the last, and the entire narrative is consistent.

It is your interpretation that doesn’t “wash”, since if the chapter is about what you want to make it out to be, then only a handful of verses are sensible, and the vast majority of the chapter is unconnected and speaking of unrelated subjects.

“Just as Eph. 1:4 is about personal election before the foundation of the world.”

Sure, but that chapter says nothing about there being no free will, and says nothing to invalidate all the other assertions in the Bible that salvation is based on our faith, rather than an arbitrary choice made by another. You are trying to build your contention on a foundation that is too flimsy to support it, and conveniently ignoring the glaring contradictions and objects that your hypothesis necessitates.

Explain to us, for example, what sense there is to even talk of “sin”, if nobody has any choice in the matter. How can you even define sin? Is it not trespassing against the will of God? If so, how can God will me to trespass against His will? If God commands us to disobey Him can we call that disobedience?


155 posted on 05/13/2015 11:49:30 AM PDT by Boogieman
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To: Boogieman
Sorry, your eisegesis is showing. Paul has already said, "Not all Israel is Israel." He cannot possibly be speaking of "Not all folks born into the nation are folks born into the nation." He is telling Roman believers (Gentiles) that the that choices of those "chosen" are down to the individuals and are managed by God, Himself. Like the individual choice of God loving Jacob and hating Esau before they had done anything good or bad. Like him having mercy on Moses and hardening Pharaoh. It does not depend on the MAN...it depends on God.

And, you are incorrect (again) on the derivation of "faith". It is not something a person "does" or it would be a work (check the entire argument of Rom. 3 & 4). You have removed Paul's explanation of how salvation works (by the gifting of faith to a person the way it was gifted to Abraham) to another works oriented religion.

I suppose we should ask you where you believe your "faith" came from. Was it something you generated, and therefore deserve salvation, or was it gifted to you without any merit of your own? The answer here will tell us if you have a Religion or Christianity.

157 posted on 05/13/2015 12:09:33 PM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Boogieman
"Explain to us, for example, what sense there is to even talk of “sin”, if nobody has any choice in the matter. How can you even define sin? Is it not trespassing against the will of God? If so, how can God will me to trespass against His will? If God commands us to disobey Him can we call that disobedience?"

Please notice Acts 2 where Peter makes it clear that the plan to have the Messiah, the Son of God, turned over and crucified was done by the foreknowledge and predetermination of God. Of course He manages disobedience! Here is the worst sin in the history of the universe planned, organized, timed and executed by God. Do you actually believe the there are a whole group of beings just running around doing anything they want? Read the Book, my FRiend...He is in control. And, that is why you pray asking Him to do something, anything. Because intuitively you know He can.

158 posted on 05/13/2015 12:13:50 PM PDT by Dutchboy88
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