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To: metmom
NOWHERE does Jesus command us to "listen to the church".

The comment is *IF he does not listen to the church, then......*

...treat him as a pagan or tax collector."

I don't see a significant distinction.

That is a gross misinterpretation of the passage to claim or imply that it is a standing order of Jesus to listen to the Catholic church.

Jesus could have told his followers to take disputes to Him while He was still on earth, but he gave that Authority to His Church.

He didn't tell His followers to take their disputes to the Scriptures, or to Himself.

He told His followers to take their disputes to His Church.

Ponder that for a moment.

The clear meaning is here for everyone to see. It's dealing with disputes among believers, not absolute authority given to *the Church*.

"If he will not listen to the church, treat him as a pagan or tax collector."

What about that does not sound like absolute authority?

The following verse seals this interpretation:

"Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

The power to "bind and loose" had a strict and established meaning in Judaism.

Binding and loosing is an originally Jewish phrase which appears in the New Testament, as well as in the Targum. In usage to bind and to loose mean simply to forbid by an indisputable authority, and to permit by an indisputable authority.

--Wikipedia

The power of binding and loosing was always claimed by the Pharisees. Under Queen Alexandra, the Pharisees, says Josephus ("B J." i, 5, § 2), "became the administrators of all public affairs so as to be empowered to banish and readmit whom they pleased, as well as to loose and to bind." This does not mean that, as the learned men, they merely decided what, according to the Law, was forbidden or allowed, but that they possessed and exercised the power of tying or untying a thing by the spell of their divine authority, just as they could, by the power vested in them, pronounce and revoke an anathema upon a person. The various schools had the power "to bind and to loose"; that is, to forbid and to permit (Ḥag. 3b); and they could bind any day by declaring it a fast-day (Meg. Ta'an. xxii.; Ta'an. 12a; Yer. Ned. i. 36c, d). This power and authority, vested in the rabbinical body of each age or in the Sanhedrin (see Authority), received its ratification and final sanction from the celestial court of justice (Sifra, Emor, ix.; Mak. 23b).

--Jewish Encyclopedia


852 posted on 05/01/2015 4:45:25 PM PDT by St_Thomas_Aquinas ( Isaiah 22:22, Matthew 16:19, Revelation 3:7)
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas; metmom
.
>> “If he will not listen to the church Congregation, treat him as a pagan or tax collector.”

What about that does not sound like absolute authority? <<

.
Absolute authority to not associate with those who won't listen to you?
.

868 posted on 05/01/2015 7:44:14 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas; metmom
>>Jesus could have told his followers to take disputes to Him while He was still on earth, but he gave that Authority to His Church.<<

But never did they say take the dispute to the apostles or some hierarchical structure headed by some stand in for Christ.

912 posted on 05/02/2015 4:56:09 AM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas

Jesus told us to settle our disputes ourselves, but if someone wouldn’t listen, the FINAL step was to take it public and let the assembly decide.

He did NOT give blanket authority to the church nor did He command all believers to submit to Catholicism.


913 posted on 05/02/2015 5:01:28 AM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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