Replies

You-
Afterward, Jesus and His disciples went (in the VERY FIRST VERSE after the conversation with Nicodemus) and they BAPTIZED (with water, since that's the very meaning of the word--see Acts 8:36-38, etc.)... and we know that Jesus baptized both with water (see above) and with the Holy Spirit (see above). WATER AND SPIRIT.

Me-
Baptize means water???

You are the one who said water means baptize...And that is your proof that being born again includes baptism since the word water is in there...

Joh_3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

And now here you are back-peddling claiming water does not mean baptism...

You-
Er... no. Baptize means "baptize" (Gk: baptizein = "immerse, dip in water"); it's done WITH water. Just like "shower" doesn't mean "water"--it means "having water fall all over you, for the purpose of cleaning your body". Is this seriously new to you?

And being 'born' has nothing to do with baptism...'Born' is not baptism...

So now you clearly admit that there is no evidence of baptism in John 3:5...

And if scripture means anything to you at all, consider this:

Act 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

What it DOES NOT say is that the Holy Ghost will baptize you with water...
In one instance we are baptized (immersed) into water...In the other instance we are baptized (immersed) into the Holy Ghost (no water)...

Every time it says baptize/baptism in the scripture is no indication that water is always present...

'Born again' is the result of being baptized into the Holy Ghost...

[paladinan]
Afterward, Jesus and His disciples went (in the VERY FIRST VERSE after the conversation with Nicodemus) and they BAPTIZED (with water, since that's the very meaning of the word--see Acts 8:36-38, etc.)... and we know that Jesus baptized both with water (see above) and with the Holy Spirit (see above). WATER AND SPIRIT. [Iscool]
Baptize means water???

(*sigh*) WITH water. WITH water. Baptize means "to wash/bathe WITH water". Did you not see the little word "WITH", right before the word "water", in the part which you highlighted in pink, underlined format? You quoted and highlighted it, yourself; how could you not see it?

Had you asked, "Baptize means 'WITH water???'", I would have said, "Yes, exactly." But you went off on the odd idea of "baptize = water"... and doubled-down on that bizarre idea by mixing-and-matching the words "baptize" and "water" in other sentences. Can't you see your error, here? Honestly...

You are the one who said water means baptize...

Good grief.

Let me try again.

Baptism is not water. Baptism USES water. Water is not baptism. Water is USED IN baptism. I'm not sure why this idea is so difficult to grasp.

And that is your proof

FRiend, that isn't "my" version of ANYTHING; that logical mess was entirely of your invention, not mine.

that being born again includes baptism since the word water is in there...

No. I know, from various dictionaries (English, Greek, etc.), and from the history of the Jews, that baptism is the process by which one is bathed with water in the context of a ritual ceremony (which represents a cleansing of the soul, in addition to cleansing of the body--the key difference is that the Sacrament of Baptism, established by Christ, actually ENACTS what it symbolizes). That's really not my invention; go look it up.

When I mentioned the scene with St. Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch, it was a clear example of someone showing that water is a necessary ingredient in what everyone would recognize as "baptism". Did you miss, for example, St. John the Baptist? He was at the Jordan for a reason: to baptize with WATER. That's how it's done. That's what the word ("baptism") MEANS (i.e. to wash with WATER in a ritual ceremony). Does that clarify, at least a bit?

And now here you are back-peddling claiming water does not mean baptism...

Please quote me in any place where I said that "water means baptism". Please. Because the only one in this entire thread who has ever said this, from what I can read, is you. How can I "back-pedal" on something which I never said (and certainly don't believe), and which you falsely attributed to me?

And being 'born' has nothing to do with baptism...'Born' is not baptism...

(*headdesk*)

FRiend... let me try one more time. (Wow... this is like trying to get through to Nicodemus!)

Are you at all familiar with the idea of being "born again"? And are you aware of the fact that this does NOT entail painful labor on your biological mother's part, or midwives, or cutting of umbilical cords, or the other sundry things involved in a natural, biological birth? And are you aware of the fact that faith is a critical, indispensable component of that "new birth"? If so, then you have the tools to see that someone coming along and saying "hey... birth doesn't mean faith!" is woefully confused. That's analogous to what you're doing, here.

So let me try to explain, anew.

Baptism is the process by which a person is ceremonially washed in water, as a symbol of inner conversion/renewal of mind/heart. It isn't done with sand, or oil, or honey, or even melted cheese; it's done with water. This ceremonial washing was well known to the Jews, centuries before Christ walked the earth (cf. Exodus 29:4, Numbers 19:7-8, etc.).

Honestly... your comments read as if you've never, ever heard of the idea that baptism involves water. Have you seriously never heard of any connection between "baptism" and "water", before? Forgive my surprise... but it's a bit like finding someone who has never heard of any connection between "sandwich" and "bread"!

Now... you go on to say this:

So now you clearly admit that there is no evidence of baptism in John 3:5...

I must have missed where I did that. Can you show me?

And if scripture means anything to you at all, consider this:

There's no need for melodrama; Scripture is very dear to me. Is it dear to you?

Act 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. What it DOES NOT say is that the Holy Ghost will baptize you with water... Every time it says baptize/baptism in the scripture is no indication that water is always present...

"Every time", there's no indication that water was "ALWAYS" present? You may have to iron out the syntax of that sentence, for me...

But let me give you a challenge: if you can find even one instance of the act of "baptism" occurring in Scripture (aside from when Jesus uses it as a metaphor for being "plunged into" suffering--cf. Mark 10:58, Luke 12:50, etc.) where Scripture flatly says that water was NOT there, then I'll admit defeat, and move on. Otherwise, I think I need to go with the preponderance of positive evidence (the definition of "baptize"--i.e. washing/bathing with water--the Jewish history with the practice, the sight of water triggering the eunuch's request for baptism [otherwise, why didn't the sight of fire, or oil, or wind in the plants, move the eunuch to ask for baptism--since those are all symbols of the Holy Spirit?], and 2000 years of Christian history which disagrees with your rather odd and novel idea), rather than make up something with NO supporting evidence, on the rather dubious pretext that "the Bible doesn't say that it ISN'T true!"

'Born again' is the result of being baptized into the Holy Ghost...

Of course it is! The Holy Ghost uses the symbol of water washing to enact a true spiritual cleansing; the two ideas (Holy Ghost, and water) are not mutually exclusive.

(You wouldn't happen to be Pentecostal, would you?)

In one instance we are baptized (immersed) into water...

Right.

In the other instance we are baptized (immersed) into the Holy Ghost

Again, right... through the means of the water and the words (cf. Ephesians 5:26: "that He might sanctify [the Church], having cleansed Her by the washing of water with the Word").

(no water)...

And THERE'S where you go off the tracks, into mere opinion and unscriptural nonsense.