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To: CynicalBear; St_Thomas_Aquinas
Where did you get that?

See the very post to which you're responding. If you're claiming that "any old visible Church is good enough, if taking an unrepentant sinner to them", then that logically requires unanimity between the Churches... or else the command of Jesus would be nonsense ("if your brother sins"--how so, if the 7 Churches have 7 different ideas of what constitutes a "sin"?).

He is the leader of those who teach another gospel from what the apostles taught.

(*wry look*) Mm-hmm. So it's not the mere fact that a hierarchy is involved, but it's the POPE, SPECIFICALLY, with whom you claim to have a beef. And how, exactly, do you come to the conclusion (aside from personal taste and raw personal opinion) that he's teaching "another Gospel from what the apostles taught"? What, apart from "CynicalBear hates it", is different from apostolic teaching... and how do you know that?

Those that purport to lord over the people are called nicolaitans and God hates that.

O-kayyyyy. So... tell me, please, where in Scripture you find THIS tidbit? Where does Scripture say that "those that purport to lord over the people are called nicolaitans"? I see the word "Nicolaitans" only twice in the Bible (Revelation 2:6 and 2:15), and it's left undefined in both cases. For a "sola Scriptura" guy, you're certainly going far afield from Scripture... :)

Besides, the closest anywhere that indicates shepherds over the flock are found in Acts 20 where Paul is talking to the elders of Ephesus, NOT Rome. And it's Paul NOT Peter.

How about (as a quick reference, off the top of my head) St. Peter, in 1 Peter 5:2-4? Or would you call someone who's "over a flock" to be "not a shepherd"?


1,134 posted on 05/05/2015 2:24:24 PM PDT by paladinan (Rule #1: There is a God. Rule #2: It isn't you.)
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To: paladinan
>>If you're claiming that "any old visible Church is good enough<<

Any old church? Once again, where did you get that?

>>if taking an unrepentant sinner to them", then that logically requires unanimity between the Churches...<<

No, it doesn't. It's the local assembly they were to take it to. Not some hierarchical man made organization.

>>if the 7 Churches have 7 different ideas of what constitutes a "sin"?<<

They were each addressed independently of the others weren't they.

>>So it's not the mere fact that a hierarchy is involved, but it's the POPE, SPECIFICALLY, with whom you claim to have a beef.<<

I'm sure you would like to split them up for discussion but they are actually one and the same problem.

>>And how, exactly, do you come to the conclusion (aside from personal taste and raw personal opinion) that he's teaching "another Gospel from what the apostles taught"?<<

Many ways but one easy one would be the assumption of Mary and the requirement to believe it.

>>I see the word "Nicolaitans" only twice in the Bible (Revelation 2:6 and 2:15), and it's left undefined in both cases.<<

It's just a matter of searching the Greek.

Greek - “Nico,” in Greek, is “to rule over or conquer,” and “lait” is “the common people,” the laity. Jesus Himself said it was not to be so with His assembly.

Mark 10:42 Calling them to Himself, Jesus said to them, "You know that those who are recognized as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them; and their great men exercise authority over them. 43 "But it is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant;

In Revelation He said He hates it.

1,150 posted on 05/05/2015 3:51:30 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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