Posted on 04/28/2015 8:36:56 AM PDT by RnMomof7
It’s a question that requires little thought to answer; are you infallible? It ranks right up there with, “Are you God?” But to Catholic apologists the question is quite serious; that’s because they believe that there is a man on earth who, on the subject of faith and morals, is infallible; they call him, “holy father.” See, it does rank right up there with, “Are you God,” at least when coming from people who think their leader is equal with God on deciding issues of faith and morals.
According to Catholic apologist, John Martignoni, this question should cause Protestants to suddenly doubt everything they believe, and Catholics should take comfort in knowing they and only they, have an infallible leader here on earth. But how can they know? Is there one Catholic person out there, besides the pope of course, who will confess to being infallible? And if a Catholic is not infallible, how can he or she “know” their pope is infallible? They can’t! So if they cannot infallibly declare their pope to be infallible, then their assertion is nothing more than a fallible opinion. And if they are wrong, which my fallible counter-assertion says they are, then they are being deceived.
The logic that so often accompanies claims of papal infallibility goes something like this: “Jesus did not leave His people vulnerable to the doctrinal whims of competing leaders.”
The logic used is quite revealing; it indicates very strongly that those who use it have no idea what it means to have the gift of the Holy Spirit, because if they had the gift of the Holy Spirit they would not be looking to Rome for infallible direction. It also reveals that they think everyone else is like them, wanting to follow the whims of their leaders. It also denies the notion that Christ has relationship with man through the gift of the Holy Spirit. Their magisterium reserves that privilege for themselves and people buy into it. It’s no different than Mormons following their prophet in Utah.
The pope is the head of the Roman Catholic Church, but the Apostle Paul explicitly said that Christ is the head of His Church and He reconciles all things to Himself. To wit, Catholics will be quick to agree that Christ is the head, but then immediately contradict themselves by saying, “but He established the papacy through which He reveals His truths .” Based on what? If Christ is the head and we are the body, where does the papacy fit in? I see no evidence of this claim in Scripture or history, so if the evidence is not there the papacy must belong to a different body; one that is not associated with Christ and His church.
In his newsletter on his website where he shares chapter one of his new book, “Blue Collar Apologetics,” John Martignoni instructs his faithful followers to establish the fact that Protestants are not infallible early on in discussions with them. The purpose of doing this is to attempt to convince the Protestant that he could be wrong about what he believes. The funny thing is Martignoni never tells his readers what to do if the Protestant turns the question back on them; and that is most certainly what is likely to happen.
Does Martignoni really not see this coming, or is he simply at a loss for how to address it? Once a Catholic apologist is faced with admitting their own fallibility, they will immediately be forced to deal with the realization that their claim of papal infallibility is itself a fallible opinion; so they must, therefore, admit that they could be wrong as well. And once they realize the playing field is level, the evidence will do the talking.
A Catholic apologist who is willing to concede that his belief regarding papal infallibility is nothing more than a fallible opinion will likely ask another similar question, “What church do you belong to and how old is it?” In their minds this is the true “gotcha” question. They believe, in their fallible opinions of course, that they belong to the church founded by Christ nearly 2000 years ago. But the fact is, and yes it is a fact, there was no Roman Catholic Church 2000 years ago; it took a few hundred years for that to develop. Furthermore, by their own admission, the doctrines they hold equal in authority to the Bible, which they call “sacred traditions,” did not exist at the time of the apostles; that also is a fact.
There is something, however, that is clearly older than any Protestant or Roman Catholic Church and that is the written books of the Bible. If a person bases his or her faith on these written works then no supposed authority that came later can undermine the power of God working through them. It is unfortunate that when a person comes to Christ in faith through reading the Bible, that there are so-called Christians who come along to cast doubt in their minds. For example, in a tract on the Catholic Answers website called, “By What Authority,” it is stated, “In fact, not one book of the Bible was written for non-believers.”
Not according to the Apostle John who explicitly wrote, “These are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name”? He did not say these are written because you believe; he said, these are written that you may believe. John’s gospel is a firsthand written testimony of the ministry of Jesus for the purpose of bringing people to Him, and Catholic apologists are telling us it was never John’s intention for us to become believers by reading it? Amazing; isn’t it? The Catholic Answers philosophy seems to be to make up facts rather than face them.
So for the sake of the next John Martignoni disciple who wants to ask me if I am infallible, the answer is no; and incidentally your answer to my identical question is also no. Thus I am not interested in your fallible opinion that your pope is infallible when speaking on faith and morals. Perhaps one of you can go tell Mr. Martignoni that chapter his one is incomplete, and that he might want to consider adding a realistic response to his question rather than a bunch of scenarios where the Protestant is simply dumbfounded. His current scenarios might have been fun for him to write, but they are only going to embarrass his readers when they go out armed with the Martignoni sword.
Of course it was...The Catholic church was CHRISTIANITY at the time and to have writings heretical to its beliefs could be a threat to Christianity itself...sheesh...is that really so hard to understand?????????????
WRONG they absolutely are....they were the only ones there when that authority was handed down....you can't really come along 1,600 years late and assume that you have the same authority....
No, it wasn’t.
Christianity flourished in spite of the Catholic church’s attempts to eradicate it.
God always has a remnant.
When there are children playing together in the yard....adults shouldn't disturb them.....
WOW!!!!!!!!The church of navigatin' now is the new authority on what is bogus....now that is really impressive.....They've been around for 80 years or so and they are the authority on ANYTHING is amazing.
Yeah...they should be much more careful in reading the scriptures which they wrote...there members aren't brainwashed into anything and much of what you read about the Catholic church is not based on infallible doctrine..
ONLY WHEN THE POPE SPEAKS FROM THE CHAIR OF PETER.....EX CATHEDRA....IS THE STATEMENT INFALLIBLE.
If Pope Francis speaks on his opinion of world politics, global warming, the Chicago Cubs....whatever...it is the opinion of Pope Francis.
Yeah, and necessary for the most part...certain groups (mentioning no names)were spreading false interpretations of the Bible, erroneous teachings were being propagated, false doctrines introduced....and the CATHOLIC CHURCH was the SOLE protector of Christianity...they got a little more than testy when it came to protecting truth which they had done 100% for well over a thousand years....It is really fortunate for ALL of us that they were so adamant in their responsibility to guard and protect the Bible or we might have erroneous versions like KJV today.....oh wait a second...they may have lifted the ban too soon.
A person with a regenerate spirit and a renewed mind of Christ would not automatically equate the two.
Projection sure is an interesting thing....
Yes, I have a feeling, though I am not 100% sure, that sinning with no consequences is what many religionists with like to do. This has been explained to terycarl approximately 3,978 times. I think it is entirely possible he hasn't figured it out yet. I wonder why? I know it has been said about 4 million times, but I suspect somewhere in the world, there is a works based religionist, who is cringing to know that there are Christians enjoying life, but not a life of sin. Oh darn, make that 3,979 times now. Remember, only true Christians will make it to Heaven. :-) Many are called, but few are chosen. Oh darn, there are those trees in the way of the forest again. Can we hear it for clear cutting?
:-)
When I was a catholic, me and most of my catholic high school classmates were some of the worst sinners around. It appeared to me that most of them enjoyed sinning, with NO conscience at all. I thought they were typical, but what do I know. I was just a rebellious catholic. :-) Praise God for that. It paved the way for those nice guys (Navs) to come along. Praise God for that. They showed me the errors of my ways, and I got saved, something that was utterly unknown among my catholic high school classmates. Praise God for that. I still keep in touch with three of them. They are still in the RCC, so we go round and round about it. I have fun with them.
When there are children playing together in the yard....adults shouldn't disturb them.....
I agree. Me and MM, RN, D1212, GC, CB, SR and AMPU are having an intelligent discussion. We will try not to disturb you on the playground. See you at the pearly gates, if you have faith, then lead a good enough life, to maintain it. :-)
What is meant here is evicting false guilt based on superstition and replacing it with a realistic assessment, based on God's word, of how we should live. People who have lived under systems where man-made rules have trumped core principles such as love and truth often have substantial issues with false guilt. One of my Catholic relatives in the Chicago area has evolved an elaborate system of good luck practices that closely resembles voodoo. I wish I were making this up. She threw water at my children when they were young, hoping that would count as baptism, didn't trust the whole Baptist "trust God" approach. We love this person, but would never want to live in that kind of spiritual darkness. God doesn't want any believer to miss out on the myriad gifts of His joy and blessing that belong to us through our redemption in Christ, over false guilt. There's enough real guilt to deal with as it is, and by God's grace we can account for those things in our life that need to be fixed. We work at that. But we do not surrender to imagining ourselves to be better than God at finding sin. There is liberty in Christ. That's just good doctrine.
Peace,
SR
How many have I Read???Well, I read one of the earlier versions several times, but the newer versions..larger print especially welcome, are easier to read and understand...Reading the Bible over and over, and over does not make you a Bible scholar...if you misinterpret it every time you read it....for example denying that THIS IS MY BODY means THIS IS MY BODY ...if you deny that a thousand times....you have wasted a lot of time reading a book that you do not understand.
WOW!!!!!!!!The church of navigatin' now is the new authority on what is bogus....now that is really impressive.....They've been around for 80 years or so and they are the authority on ANYTHING is amazing.
Hey, Top Cat, You forgot to ping elsie,or maybe you did not forget, I don't know which. Anyway, if you quote someone, ping them. He is the one who said it. You didn't, so I will.
Hey Els, TC did not ping you so I will. PING PING PING. I think three loud pings should do it. At any rate, I agree with Elsie, being as he is the elder statesman here. He deserves respect. He will expose bogus stuff anytime someone posts it. Thanks for all dat exposin' going on out der. Els, all this stuff is causing my brain to conjure up Limericks. How about a great one? I know you are good at it. Pardon me, while I dream one up.
:-)
Preach it bro.
Some people do feel guilty if they are having a good time, or just relaxing. Some people can’t even relax for that reason, because they are so driven that they think they have to be constantly on the go, doing, doing, doing......
What joy to be free of that kind of obsession and just be able to enjoy life, and REALLY enjoy it and have, yes, a good time.
Mark, I think you’re right. Some people just can’t stand the idea that someone else might actually be enjoying themselves when they know deep down that they aren’t and can’t. It’s just jealousy.
And your experience as a Catholic sounds almost exactly like mine. Catholics joke about sinning, and figure they’ll just confess it on Saturday and be all OK and then talk like being a Catholic is some kind of grueling endurance course and bragging about how tough it is to be a Catholic.
Tough to be a Catholic???? yeah, right...../s
And I was talking about really having a good time. Like enjoying a walk on the beach and watching the sun set over the Gulf.
Only a perverted mind would automatically equate the phrase *good time* with sin. I can see that jealousy is raising it’s ugly head.
Grade school....ah yes, Dick and Jane and Spot and Puff....Mom and Dad......run Jane run....see Dick play...
Do you really think that it would be easier to teach a child directly from the Bible than to use the catechism to convert biblical mores and teachings into everyday life situations???
The Catechism has a very important role to play in Christian education and it converts all of the various Gospels, Epistles, scriptures,into everyday, understandable vernacular.
WHY DID GOD MAKE YOU?..God made me to know, love, and serve Him, and to be with Him for all eternity.
WHAT IS CONFIRMATION?? Confirmation is a Sacrament through which Christ comes to us in a special way to enable us to profess our faith as strong and perfect Christians and soldiers of Jesus Christ.
WHAT IS THE EUCHARIST?? The Eucharist is a Sacrament and a Sacrifice in which Jesus Christ, Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity comes to us under the appearance of bread and wine..
Best I can do, Baltimore Catechism circa 1945...
The Catechism is a teaching tool....
The Davao Gulf, from Jack's Ridge?
:-)
Only a perverted mind would automatically equate the phrase *good time* with sin. I can see that jealousy is raising it’s ugly head.
Yes, I agree, enjoying the small things in life, like looking at God's creation, enjoying the company of true Christian friends. You can even sit beside a turf fire in the cabin, and watch barefoot gossoons at their play.
:-)
OK, between posts, I will try to conjure up a good Limerick, for you and Elsie to enjoy.
:-)
O.K., I Thunk....HE is the one who took bread and said "Take and eat of this, THIS IS MY BODY"...sounds voluntary to me...see what happens when you THINK.
DARN....it took you 2015 years to set the Catholic church straight...WOW, just in time too, the end times are probably near....but with OSAS in effect now, who cares???
WHOOPEE time!!
There are no recorded instances of zillions of things in the NT...didn't you read the part where it said something to the effect that all the books written couldn't contain all the things that Christ accomplished????...well infant Baptism was one of them.
They did!!!..They were good Catholic Parents whose decisions on your behalf you do not seem to appreciate. I hope your immersion in a pool in Viet Nam was pleasant because that's all that it was..
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