Good day, Mrs Don-O.
Actually, it doesn’t seem to me from where I sit that you’re in agreement. Or else, why write what you did about Psalm 8, Mary, and as you put it, man “not being entirely contemptible”?
It’s important to keep the issues straight. Despite the glory given man by God, there is still a judgment and Hell. Read John 3 again. Man if he doesn’t believe on Jesus is under God’s wrath. There is no mention of him having glory or being made in God’s image there. Those things didn’t keep Adam and Eve from being expelled from Eden, either. Whenever God’s judgment is mentioned, the glory given to man by God and being made in His image is never mentioned, to my recollection, and certainly not as any defense of man.
Yet for all that, does man’s guilt make him “entirely contemptible”? That’s very vague because the question needs to be asked, contemptible to whom? To God, or other people, or himself? And why? There are so many ways for him to be contemptible and to so many different beings that without more qualification it’s a point without much meaning. If you can explain that more, please do.
But what’s more, where is that concern in the Bible? We have value in being made by God Himself. That’s where our value comes from - our maker. He values us in that He gave His own Son to die for us. That’s hardly holding us in contempt of being. But He does hate sin, and He says His wrath is on those who don’t repent and believe on His Son for salvation. And we need His Son because our sin makes us worthy of eternal death, separation from a holy God, and suffering in Hell. Those are just facts. We have great value in being made by God in His image, but we are also sinners against Him, deserving eternal death. God offers us reconciliation, though, through the sacrifice of His own Son, which is needed to atone for our sins against Him. This is merely the Gospel.
If it comes back to the argument of there being “something” in man that is worthy because he chooses to believe in Jesus, what are we that we haven’t received? Paul asked that question, when condemning boasting and elevating oneself over others. I heard R.C. Sproul say recently that if you believe in Jesus, and others don’t, is it because you believe you’re morally better than they are, or smarter than they are? That’s where “works” thinking leads, and that’s why in the parable of the Pharisee and the publican, the Pharisee compared himself favorably to others, believing himself better and even thinking to thank God for making him a better person than other people, while the publican didn’t make such comparisons. He looked only at the fact that he was guilty before God. Actually, we don’t have full answers on many things, and Paul writes that we don’t exactly know why God bestows grace on some and hardens others, and then Paul asks who is man to question God? We know we are sinners against God. That should be our one concern.
Recently I responded elsewhere here on justification and the idea of exalting Mary, and if you don’t mind, I’ll include parts of those replies here too:
“””””””I know what motivates most of the Protestants posting here. Love for Jesus, and pain at Catholic doctrine that gets people only just so close to Him, and no further. That love for Him makes it impossible for us to pray to anyone else, or glorify anyone else, and doctrines that teach otherwise are painfully repellent to us. We are going by what the Bible reveals, and while the Catholic Church justifies teachings on the grounds of “what the Bible might have left out,” the Bible doesn’t contradict itself and wouldn’t contradict any truth revealed outside of itself, and it also has a completeness.
When the same lesson is taught over and over, giving the same message, there has to be a very compelling reason to modify it. And it is never just wholly violated, either.
If you go back to Genesis, where the Bible begins to talk about Noah, it says at that time man “began to call on the name of the Lord.” Just the name of the Lord. The Bible is about Him. The Alpha and the Omega. It drums home the point again, and again, and again, and again, and so on, that NO ONE is like Him and is in any way to be treated like Him when it comes to the things that belong to GOD alone.”””””””
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3282029/posts?page=132#132
“””””””When someone claims to be saved by faith and by works, they are claiming that they are partly saved by Jesus (whom they need because of their “bad self,”) and partly saved by themselves (their “good self,” who, as the atheists say, doesn’t need God because it’s already good.)
“To be partly “saved by works” is to, like Satan, claim a partial independence and non-need for God. It’s also to claim that both God and self are sources for good. This flies in the face of what Paul wrote, though, that we have nothing to boast about because there isn’t anything good in ourselves we haven’t received from God.”””””””
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3278414/posts?page=204#204
“If you look at Mary and the apostles, whenever someone tried to credit them, they gave the glory to GOD instead. And that is true fellowship with them, then, doing as they did. Would they want us looking to them, as examples? Yes! As they were inspired and strengthened by hearing about other people’s faith.
“But if they only exalted the Lord, and didn’t want people to exalt them, why would anyone think they’d ever be pleased with being exalted? And if that exaltation had been in the original church, then they would have been exalted right then. We would have a long history of all that happened to Mary after Jesus’ ascension, for example. And the church would have regarded Jesus’ brothers as royalty, and those lines would have been acknowledged all the way down to this day. Jesus and the church came from the Jews, and the Jews kept just such records of genealogy. Yet almost all of that knowledge about Mary, Jesus’ brothers, and the apostles was deliberately lost, and that’s because it would have taken away from glorifying Jesus alone.”””””””
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3282029/posts?page=132#132
“”””””” And the main reason why they, and I too at times, post on the Catholic Church is that its doctrines grieve us.I started out neutral on the Catholic Church, open to it, even after I read the Bible about ten years ago, but at this point it gets worse in my eyes all the time.
“One thing grievous about it? I remember Father Corapi (who I know has since left the priesthood) speaking on prayer, and saying that people ask him to pray, and he said, “But I don’t have power. Mary has power. Jesus has power. The saints have power.” And the Catholic radio station in the Buffalo area, where I used to live, was doing a fundraiser once when the radio host said, “Maybe Mary is inspiring you to call. Or the Holy Spirit.” Their phone number is 877-888-6279, or as they put it, 877-888-MARY. And not long ago a Catholic (author) on the (radio) station in the state where I live now was asked what chapter of the new book he’d written, which is something of an overview of all Catholicism, meant the most to him, and I wondered to myself if his answer would point to Mary, and sure enough, he said it was the chapter he wrote on Mary.
“Those are just a few examples of something so troubling to Bible-believing Christians, giving the Lord’s place to someone else. Putting aside the Old Testament for a moment, you can’t find a single instance of someone besides God being exalted in the New Testament, and it being approved of by God. In fact, when Herod gave a speech and the people started to say, “the words of a god and not of a man,” because he allowed the people to say that and didn’t instead correct them and give the glory to God, he was eaten by worms from the inside on the spot. And the whole Bible is consistent with that bright line. Only God is a God.”””””””
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3282029/posts?page=336#336
The sort of prayers to Mary that Cynical Bear posted to you are just the sort of thing God reveals in the Bible not to be His will. Yet over time they came into and were built up more and more in the Catholic Church, and given Catholic beliefs on their church, they have to defend them.
Many Catholics seem to have faith in their church above anyone or anything else. Evangelical Christians have faith in God and His Word, which means defending both even when we don’t understand or things seem to go against them. We remain faithful. We aren’t that way with churches, though. Catholics, though, tend to be with theirs, and while you can’t go wrong with defending God and His Word (how can you?), with churches you truly can. This is from another reply on that very subject:
“””””” Anything critical of the Catholic Church can’t be tolerated. Something to be considered is that Protestants consider God - God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit - to be perfect. And we consider God’s Word to be perfect. We do not, though, consider a church or the church on earth to be perfect. But Catholics do, and that leads to all sorts of twisting, lying and lack of forthrightness, humility, and integrity in order to protect the Catholic Church - as if that somehow pleases God, when God says that He shows no partiality. Even though it’s only supposed to be some very narrow things about the Catholic Church that are infallible, nobody is quite sure what and just about everything and everyone associated with it gets defended, right or wrong, or something wrong gets dismissed as just individual conduct or old news or exaggeration or the messenger is blamed for reporting the bad news. There’s the attitude of the defense attorney and “of course my client is innocent.” But the things that serve the Lord are the unvarnished truth, justice, and humility - not reflexive contortions to defend people and institutions because they are in “His church.””””””
If you try to defend something as perfect that simply isn’t, you aren’t following the truth, and you are merely being defensive and spin doctoring.
You’ve written me a 1,780 - word essay. I just want you to know I appreciate your efforts, but I really can’t respond to it in a comprehensive way.
You asked me to explain what I mean when I say that "man is not completely contemptible." I mean that God created humans to be very noble beings ---“You have made him a little less than a god, You have crowned man with glory and honor”, says the Psalmist --- and even sinners still have a residual dignity simply because, despite our offenses and deformities, we are still loved by God and bear the marks of His good creation.
Everything we have is from God, and properly gives Him glory. And if we have any glory, it is because God glorifies us, due to the magnificence of His generosity.
You say “No one is to be treated like Him when it comes to the things that belong to GOD alone” and that is true forever, Amen. But that does not negate the fact that, as Peter said (2 Peter 1:4) ”He has bestowed on us the precious and very great promises, so that through them you may come to share in the divine nature”.
This again is due to the magnificence of His generosity, not our power, cleverness or piety. How could we work for and earn things we cannot even imagine?
”When someone claims to be saved by faith and by works, they are claiming that they are partly saved by Jesus …and partly saved by themselves .” I don’t think this accusation is true. You’ll have to take this up with St. James, who wrote it (James 2:20) - ”Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?” --- yes, take it up with him, and with the Holy Spirit who inspired him to write it.
Frankly, I wouldn't have written that. I hope you won’t get touchy about that “ignoramus” part: that was St. James, not me.
Please forgive me any deficiencies in my writing. Glory be to God in all things. I wish you well and pray for you, Faith Presses On.