The Reformation is over. Catholics 0, Protestants 1

triablogue ^ | April 13, 2015 | Jerry Walls

[RnMomof7]

I'm going to transcribe an article that Jerry Walls wrote when he was a grad student at Notre Dame:

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I am nearing the end of three very happy (with a brief interlude) years as a graduate student in the philosophy department at Notre Dame. The philosophy department is quite lively and stimulating and I have learned a great deal about my discipline.

Along the way, I have also acquired an education of another sort–namely in the ways of the Roman Catholic Church. My education in this regard has been informal and piecemeal, to be sure. My insights have been gathered from diverse sources: from lectures, from letters to the Observer, from articles in the conservative magazine Fidelity, from interaction with undergraduates I have taught. But most of all, I have learned from numerous conversations with students and faculty in the philosophy and theology departments, many of which have involved a friend who is a former Roman Catholic seminarian. While my informal education in these matters hardly qualifies me to speak as an authority, Roman Catholics may find interesting how one Protestant in their midst has come to perceive them. I can communicate my perceptions most clearly, I think, by briefly describing three types of Catholics I have encountered. 

First, I have met a fair number of conservative Catholics. Those who belong to this group like to characterize themselves as thoroughly Catholic. They stress the teaching authority of the Church and are quick to defend the official Catholic position on all points. For such persons, papal encyclicals are not to be debated; they are to be accepted and obeyed. Many conservative Catholics, I suspect, hold their views out of a sense of loyalty to their upbringing. Others, however, defend their views with learning, intelligence, and at times, intensity.

At the other end of the spectrum of course, are the liberal Catholics. These persons are openly skeptical not only about distinctively Roman doctrines such as papal infallibility, but also about basic Christian doctrine as embodied in the ecumenical creeds. It is not clear in what sense such persons would even be called Christians. Nevertheless, if asked their religious preference, on a college application say, they would identify themselves as Catholics. I have no idea how many Catholics are liberals of this stripe, but I have met only a few here at Notre Dame.

It is the third type of Catholic, I am inclined to think, which represents the majority. Certainly most of the Catholics I have met are of this type. I call this group "functional protestants."

Many Catholics, no doubt, will find this designation offensive, so let me hasten to explain what I mean by it. One of the fundamental lines of difference between Catholics and Protestants, going back to the Reformation, concerns the issue of doctrinal authority. The traditional Roman Catholic view, as I understand it, is that its official teachings are guaranteed to be infallible, particularly when the pope or an ecumenical council exercises "extraordinary magisterium" when making doctrinal or moral pronouncements. Protestants have traditionally rejected this claim in favor of the view that Scripture alone is infallible in matters doctrinal and moral. This was the conviction MartinLuther came to hold after he arrived at the conclusion that both popes and church councils have erred. After this, his excommunication was all but inevitable.

When I say most Catholics are functional Protestants I simply mean that most Catholics do not accept the authority claims of their Church. In actual belief and practice, they are much closer to the Protestant view.

This is apparent from the fact that many Catholics do not accept explicitly defined dogmas of their Church. For example, I have talked with several Catholics who are doubtful, at best, about the Marian dogmas, even though these have the status of infallible doctrine in their church. Such Catholics have often made it clear to me that they believe the basic Christian doctrine as defined in the creeds. But they frankly admit that they think their Church has taken some wrong turns in her recent history. Where this is the case, they do not feel compelled to follow. As one of my functional Protestant friends put it: "I am a Roman Catholic, but I am more concerned about being Catholic than about being Roman."

That many Catholics are functionally Protestant is also evident in their attitude toward the distinctive moral teachings of their Church. The obvious example here is the Roman Catholic teaching that all forms of "artificial" birth control are immoral. The official view was reaffirmed explicitly by Pope Paul VI in his encyclical Humanae Vitae, and has been reiterated again and again by Pope John Paul II. Nevertheless, as the article on Humanae Vitae in the Encyclopedic Dictionary of Religion noted, "the papal ban is simply being ignored," and "a concrete authority crisis has thus emerged."

I attended the recent debate on abortion between Fr. James Burtchaell and Daniel Maguire. It is interesting to me that Fr. Burtchaell who eloquently defended the conservative view on abortion, admitted to a questioner that he rejects his Church's teaching on birth control. I could not help but wonder: is Fr. Burtchaell, Catholic statesman though he is, also among the functional Protestants?

This raises, of course, the deeper issue here: to what extent can a member of the Roman Catholic Church disagree with the official teachings of his Church and still be a faithful Catholic? Can one reject the teaching of a papal encyclical while remaining a faithful Catholic? If so, can he also reject a doctrine which the pope has declared infallible?

I have put these questions to several Catholics. Conservative have assured me that the answer to both the latter questions is no. Others insist the answer is yes.

This brings me to a final point concerning functional Protestants: they do consider themselves faithful Catholics. I have  often pointed out in conversation with such Catholics that their views differ little from mine. Why then remain Catholic I ask. In response, these Catholics make it clear to me that they love their Church and intend to remain loyal to it. More than one has compared the Church to his family. One's family makes mistakes, but one does not therefore choose to join another family.

I am not sure what to make of this response. It is not clear to me that one can line up behind Luther in holding that the Popes and councils have erred in their doctrinal and moral pronouncements, and still be a faithful Catholic.  But on the other hand, things have changed since the 16C. It is no longer the case that a Catholic will be excommunicated for holding what Luther held. Perhaps this is just another sign that the Reformation is–despite the pope's best efforts–finally taking hold within the Roman Church. 

Jerry Walls, "Reformational Theology found in Catholicism," The Observer, Thursday, April 23, 1978, p8.

[boatbums]

Context??? They don’t need no steenkin’ context!

[LurkingSince'98]

If you have a problem with how the Church valued $3.69 billion in charitable giving - take it up with CARA.

This is the Charitable giving of just one of the Churches charitable arms, Catholic Charities.

If you think I care wherher you believe the number you are sorely mistaken.

AMDG

[metmom]

Tell me, are there CURRENT Roman Catholic priests who have left and gotten married? Are they STILL considered Catholics in good standing even after having done so or does Rome excommunicate them, too?

I know the answer to that one because I'm related to one.

And NOT by marriage, because precedent tells me what kind of accusations would be coming my way next without that disclaimer. (or maybe even with it)

[Iscool]

I'm walking around the neighborhood without my quad cane, looking at dogwoods

White or pink, or both??? They are absolutely beautiful, to me...

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“The Reformation is indeed over and the Catholics are coming out on top with people coming back to the Church.”

No doubt some go to Rome... And I’m fine with that.

Tens of millions leave Rome for Christ - South America, for example... And I’m fine with that.

I want people everywhere to know Christ alone for eternal life.

[Iscool]

Do you care to share the entire quote Salvation, or only the part that is convinient to you and you fellow adherents?

Part of the RC deception game, even when the truth is known...

[ealgeone]

Still haven't answered the question I see.

I've noticed a trend on this board.

Catholics make a lot of claims on the superiority of catholicism.....yet when called on these claims the statements are found to be incorrect or somewhat manipulated.

I also notice catholics don't like to ask answer questions either. They like to ask to be sure.....but don't like to answer.

[papertyger]

Part of the RC deception game...

Couldn't be she's only quoting the relevant part, could it?

You who are so quick to accuse, please tell me where your authoritative doctrines regarding the characteristics of sin and it's deceptions can be found.

And answering "the Bible" is an evasion. There is no verse teaching the qualifications of the Virtures, or the "Deadly Sins."

[ealgeone]

Are you going to post the whole quote as some have asked.......?

. Or are you going to post a half truth?

Catholics can't seem to help but quote things out of context. It's very embarrassing and kills any credibility of the poster.

[BlueDragon]

Context??? They don’t need no steenkin’ context!

Ain't that the truth. (woops --- must be careful lest one of us provoke one of the big eggs around here, to then ourselves be accused of not knowing a cravet from a belt.)

Queue up the Humpty Dumpty, let the creature speak;

The time has come...

But this time a few paragraphs portion preceding the "when I use a word" quote;

‘Don’t you think you’d be safer down on the ground?’ Alice went on, not with any idea of making another riddle, but simply in her good-natured anxiety for the queer creature. ‘That wall is so very narrow!’

‘What tremendously easy riddles you ask!’ Humpty Dumpty growled out. ‘Of course I don’t think so! Why, if ever I did fall off — which there’s no chance of — but If I did —’ Here he pursed his lips and looked so solemn and grand that Alice could hardly help laughing. ‘If I did fall,’ he went on, ‘the King has promised me — with his very own mouth — to — to —’ ‘To send all his horses and all his men,’ Alice interrupted, rather unwisely.

‘Now I declare that’s too bad!’ Humpty Dumpty cried, breaking into a sudden passion. ‘You’ve been listening at doors — and behind trees — and down chimneys — or you couldn’t have known it!’

‘I haven’t, indeed!’ Alice said very gently. ‘It’s in a book.’

‘Ah, well! They may write such things in a book,’ Humpty Dumpty said in a calmer tone. ‘That’s what you call a History of England, that is. Now, take a good look at me! I’m one that has spoken to a King, I am: mayhap you’ll never see such another: and to show you I’m not proud, you may shake hands with me!’ And he grinned almost from ear to ear, as he leant forwards (and as nearly as possible fell of the wall in doing so) and offered Alice his hand. She watched him a little anxiously as she took it. ‘If he smiled much more, the ends of his mouth might meet behind,’ she thought: ‘and then I don’t know what would happen to his head! I’m afraid it would come off!’

‘Yes, all his horses and all his men,’ Humpty Dumpty went on. ‘They’d pick me up again in a minute, they would!

...the walrus said
coo-koo-ka-choo

[papertyger]

Context doesn’t mean much when one, such as Luther, is propounding mutual exclusivities.

Imagining a seamless whole of inherent contradictions is an indictment of the devotee, not the critic.

[Mark17]

Being on a ventilator for 16 days was horrible, even though it saved my lIfe

Glad you're doing better. The Lord heals you, but He often times uses doctors to do it. Continued prayers for your health. God bless you.

[LadyDoc]

Let me see. I personally know several Catholics who suffered martyrdom.

That doesn’t mean I think every one of the one billion Catholics are as pious as they were.

Strawman arguments as usual.

[LurkingSince'98]

How many Protestants do you know that suffered martyrdom?

[BlueDragon]

Imagining a seamless whole of inherent contradictions is an indictment of the devotee, not the critic.

Imagining that I imagined such a thing for lonely 'ol Luther across the board, is the stuff of imagination.

His own contradictions were seemingly few, particularly in regards to the snake-pit which he found himself born.

The statement which I italicized above is more deadly overall when turned back upon the sources which do imagine such things as seamlessness without contradiction for their own 'objects of devotion'.

[WVKayaker]

If you think I care ...

You bely that by your response.

Hahahahahaaaaa. It is quite telling that there is no cogent refutation or intellectual response to the premise of the post. Instead, there is a continual dodge and punting to Rome's alleged veracity, while trying to make any valid Scriptural corrections to their weak or personal attacks.

IOW, the lies cannot be confirmed, so "we will just go with the info I can find, without trying to provide any background for all our other Roman Cultic inconsistencies!"

[LadyDoc]

I mainly knew medical personnel who were killed by communist “insurgents” funded by the “world council of churches”.

Of these doctors/ nurses/ pharmacists, one was protestant, but seven who I knew were Catholics.Two were good friends.

At least 35 Catholics missionaries were killed in the last six months when I worked in Africa, but I didn’t know them personally. There was a Protestant family who was brutally murdered, however. And one UCC doc and one Catholic doc were jailed for “not reporting insurgent activity”.

The reason for the higher death toll in Catholics was partly because when the war got bad, most Protestants sent their families home, or carried guns with them to fight off attacks. Catholics tended not to carry guns (although the bishop gave our younger nuns permission to take birth control pills for protection).

When evil people are killing people in the name of Christ, especially when they kill those who are risking their lives to help others, these doctrinal arguments that are mainly posted to spread hatred of other Christians on FR seem a bit stupid.

[papertyger]

Ah, the “I know you are, but what am I” gambit.

How refreshing.