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The Reformation is over. Catholics 0, Protestants 1
triablogue ^ | April 13, 2015 | Jerry Walls

Posted on 04/25/2015 10:33:08 AM PDT by RnMomof7

I'm going to transcribe an article that Jerry Walls wrote when he was a grad student at Notre Dame:


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I am nearing the end of three very happy (with a brief interlude) years as a graduate student in the philosophy department at Notre Dame. The philosophy department is quite lively and stimulating and I have learned a great deal about my discipline.

Along the way, I have also acquired an education of another sort–namely in the ways of the Roman Catholic Church. My education in this regard has been informal and piecemeal, to be sure. My insights have been gathered from diverse sources: from lectures, from letters to the Observer, from articles in the conservative magazine Fidelity, from interaction with undergraduates I have taught. But most of all, I have learned from numerous conversations with students and faculty in the philosophy and theology departments, many of which have involved a friend who is a former Roman Catholic seminarian. While my informal education in these matters hardly qualifies me to speak as an authority, Roman Catholics may find interesting how one Protestant in their midst has come to perceive them. I can communicate my perceptions most clearly, I think, by briefly describing three types of Catholics I have encountered. 

First, I have met a fair number of conservative Catholics. Those who belong to this group like to characterize themselves as thoroughly Catholic. They stress the teaching authority of the Church and are quick to defend the official Catholic position on all points. For such persons, papal encyclicals are not to be debated; they are to be accepted and obeyed. Many conservative Catholics, I suspect, hold their views out of a sense of loyalty to their upbringing. Others, however, defend their views with learning, intelligence, and at times, intensity.

At the other end of the spectrum of course, are the liberal Catholics. These persons are openly skeptical not only about distinctively Roman doctrines such as papal infallibility, but also about basic Christian doctrine as embodied in the ecumenical creeds. It is not clear in what sense such persons would even be called Christians. Nevertheless, if asked their religious preference, on a college application say, they would identify themselves as Catholics. I have no idea how many Catholics are liberals of this stripe, but I have met only a few here at Notre Dame.

It is the third type of Catholic, I am inclined to think, which represents the majority. Certainly most of the Catholics I have met are of this type. I call this group "functional protestants."

Many Catholics, no doubt, will find this designation offensive, so let me hasten to explain what I mean by it. One of the fundamental lines of difference between Catholics and Protestants, going back to the Reformation, concerns the issue of doctrinal authority. The traditional Roman Catholic view, as I understand it, is that its official teachings are guaranteed to be infallible, particularly when the pope or an ecumenical council exercises "extraordinary magisterium" when making doctrinal or moral pronouncements. Protestants have traditionally rejected this claim in favor of the view that Scripture alone is infallible in matters doctrinal and moral. This was the conviction MartinLuther came to hold after he arrived at the conclusion that both popes and church councils have erred. After this, his excommunication was all but inevitable.

When I say most Catholics are functional Protestants I simply mean that most Catholics do not accept the authority claims of their Church. In actual belief and practice, they are much closer to the Protestant view.

This is apparent from the fact that many Catholics do not accept explicitly defined dogmas of their Church. For example, I have talked with several Catholics who are doubtful, at best, about the Marian dogmas, even though these have the status of infallible doctrine in their church. Such Catholics have often made it clear to me that they believe the basic Christian doctrine as defined in the creeds. But they frankly admit that they think their Church has taken some wrong turns in her recent history. Where this is the case, they do not feel compelled to follow. As one of my functional Protestant friends put it: "I am a Roman Catholic, but I am more concerned about being Catholic than about being Roman."

That many Catholics are functionally Protestant is also evident in their attitude toward the distinctive moral teachings of their Church. The obvious example here is the Roman Catholic teaching that all forms of "artificial" birth control are immoral. The official view was reaffirmed explicitly by Pope Paul VI in his encyclical Humanae Vitae, and has been reiterated again and again by Pope John Paul II. Nevertheless, as the article on Humanae Vitae in the Encyclopedic Dictionary of Religion noted, "the papal ban is simply being ignored," and "a concrete authority crisis has thus emerged."

I attended the recent debate on abortion between Fr. James Burtchaell and Daniel Maguire. It is interesting to me that Fr. Burtchaell who eloquently defended the conservative view on abortion, admitted to a questioner that he rejects his Church's teaching on birth control. I could not help but wonder: is Fr. Burtchaell, Catholic statesman though he is, also among the functional Protestants?

This raises, of course, the deeper issue here: to what extent can a member of the Roman Catholic Church disagree with the official teachings of his Church and still be a faithful Catholic? Can one reject the teaching of a papal encyclical while remaining a faithful Catholic? If so, can he also reject a doctrine which the pope has declared infallible?

I have put these questions to several Catholics. Conservative have assured me that the answer to both the latter questions is no. Others insist the answer is yes.

This brings me to a final point concerning functional Protestants: they do consider themselves faithful Catholics. I have  often pointed out in conversation with such Catholics that their views differ little from mine. Why then remain Catholic I ask. In response, these Catholics make it clear to me that they love their Church and intend to remain loyal to it. More than one has compared the Church to his family. One's family makes mistakes, but one does not therefore choose to join another family.

I am not sure what to make of this response. It is not clear to me that one can line up behind Luther in holding that the Popes and councils have erred in their doctrinal and moral pronouncements, and still be a faithful Catholic.  But on the other hand, things have changed since the 16C. It is no longer the case that a Catholic will be excommunicated for holding what Luther held. Perhaps this is just another sign that the Reformation is–despite the pope's best efforts–finally taking hold within the Roman Church. 

Jerry Walls, "Reformational Theology found in Catholicism," The Observer, Thursday, April 23, 1978, p8.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian; Other Christian
KEYWORDS: doctrine; faith; opinion; protestant; reformation
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To: LurkingSince'98

Source?


221 posted on 04/25/2015 8:02:08 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: Resettozero
I was joking about the bragging about charitable giving along, along with all the rest of the oh, so hospitable.

I can serve up a mean hospitality pie myself, of course. But wasn't aiming at breaking yourself off a chunk of that kind...

222 posted on 04/25/2015 8:02:16 PM PDT by BlueDragon (...slicing through the bologna like Belushi at a Samurai Delicatessen...)
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To: BlueDragon

You’re too clever for me.

WHAT?


223 posted on 04/25/2015 8:04:04 PM PDT by Resettozero
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To: Gamecock; Salvation

Maybe she doesn’t have the entire quote, just the part that the RCC gives to its members. Wouldn’t surprise me a bit.


224 posted on 04/25/2015 8:12:54 PM PDT by smvoice ("It certainly looked like a small toe")
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To: Religion Moderator; Resettozero

There is only one official Catholic site for Church Statistics and that is CARA everything else is speculation.

Value of services provided by Catholic Charities in the year 2014 - $3.696b

FREQUENTLY REQUESTED CHURCH STATISTICS

CARA gets many inquiries from Church agencies and the media about the numbers for vocations, seminary enrollments, priests and vowed religious, parishes, Mass attendance, schools and the Catholic population. Below are some comparative statistics from 1965. Generally, these data reflect the situation at the beginning of the calendar year listed. The sources for this information include The Official Catholic Directory (OCD), the Vatican’s Annuarium Statisticum Ecclesiae (ASE), and other CARA research and databases. All data are cross checked as much as possible. For the U.S, the numbers reported here include only figures for those 195 dioceses or eparchies who belong to the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops. This includes the 50 states, the District of Columbia, the U.S. Virgin Islands, and all U.S. military personnel stationed overseas. Entries reading “—” have no data available at this time and “na” is not applicable.

Following the U.S. and World data tables below CARA provides link to CARA research about other Frequently Asked Questions. For more information about CARA research and statistics, including our national and parish surveys, demographic studies, trend analyses and projections, and focus groups visit CARA Services. For more information about CARA’s beginings read the following Review of Religious Research article from 1967 by Francis X. Gannon entitled, “Bridging the Research Gap”

Copyright © 2015
Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate
2300 Wisconsin Ave, NW
Suite 400
Washington, DC 20007
(202) 687-8080
(202) 687-8083 (fax)

http://cara.georgetown.edu/index.html


225 posted on 04/25/2015 8:16:01 PM PDT by LurkingSince'98 (Ad Majoram Dei Gloriam = FOR THE GREATER GLORY OF GOD)
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To: smvoice
Maybe she doesn’t have the entire quote, just the part that the RCC gives to its members. Wouldn’t surprise me a bit.

Bless 'er heart.
226 posted on 04/25/2015 8:16:04 PM PDT by Resettozero
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To: LurkingSince'98

Thank you for posting this to me?


227 posted on 04/25/2015 8:17:35 PM PDT by Resettozero
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To: Campion
It never uses the term "the same god," sorry. That's you're interpretation.

Sorry. That's you're interpretation It never makes the distinction btwn the God of the Bible and that of the Qur'an, but after the "profess" part it goes on to affirm they are the same God:

“The Moslems together with us adore the one merciful God.” (http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html)

"Together" means together, and their is no pleading that this was akin to the unknown god of Acts 17, as it has a distinct theology.

Instead it is the result of doctrine by a committee of competing schools, both of which subject Scripture to being their servant.

Time for sleep now.

228 posted on 04/25/2015 8:18:20 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: daniel1212
Time for sleep now.

G'Night, all.
229 posted on 04/25/2015 8:20:44 PM PDT by Resettozero
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To: Salvation; daniel1212; BlueDragon
Did you check the link that verifies it?

It doesn't verify it.  It refutes it. The Swan article doesn't contain your quote from #22.  Nor do any of the comment. But I checked, and just as the Swan article suggests, the verbatim MISquote is all over various Catholic sites.  I wonder who it was that first mangled it and put it out there.  They've done a disservice to you.  You relied on them for truth, and they didn't deliver.  I do a fair amount of research as part of my job.  You have to watch out for these "mystery meat" quotes.  If you don't have a primary source, and the subject is controversial, you're at risk of getting burned.  Just sayin ...

Peace,

SR
230 posted on 04/25/2015 8:21:53 PM PDT by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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To: Resettozero; EagleOne

Sorry! Meant to send to eagleone in response.


231 posted on 04/25/2015 8:22:44 PM PDT by LurkingSince'98 (Ad Majoram Dei Gloriam = FOR THE GREATER GLORY OF GOD)
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To: LurkingSince'98
Luke 18:9-14

He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”

232 posted on 04/25/2015 8:32:05 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: Springfield Reformer

J.S. explains and shows that.

It seemed a bit complex for me to copy/paste that portion to these pages, but thank you for pointing that out.

Yes.

Making the effort to view primary and/or nearest primary sources (as best as those can be accessed in English language, in my own instance) often tells the tale that what one was just seemingly told was not the way it was conveyed and initially intended by writer or writers themselves to be, in it's more original form(s).

That so much is turned upon it's ear so to speak --- leaves me just bit wee-wee'd up.

233 posted on 04/25/2015 8:33:57 PM PDT by BlueDragon (...slicing through the bologna like Belushi at a Samurai Delicatessen...)
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To: metmom

Whatever.

AMDG


234 posted on 04/25/2015 8:34:35 PM PDT by LurkingSince'98 (Ad Majoram Dei Gloriam = FOR THE GREATER GLORY OF GOD)
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To: ealgeone

Courtesy ping.


235 posted on 04/25/2015 8:35:00 PM PDT by Resettozero
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To: LurkingSince'98
My source is from barna...an independent research group. You didn't even provide a link at first, but now I see you've been asked to do so....and surprise...it's a catholic one. Not sure what to think of that.

Let’s assume that other Catholic groups that didn’t crack the top 400 list spent six times what Catholic Charities USA spent, a multiplier that experts we contacted thought was reasonable. That would make the figure about $26 billion.

Then if you suppose that the 18,000 Catholic parishes spent an average of $200,000 on the needy every year beyond what they contribute to any of these charitable organizations, a number also considered plausible by our experts, that would add another $3.6 billion to the total.

All told, this would equal about $30 billion. So how does that slice compare to the entire pie?

Man....I'll tell you....that's a lot of iffing you got going on there.

Now, I did find this little item from http://nineteensixty-four.blogspot.com/2012/08/spot-difference.html/ The sources cited were CARA National Parish Inventory (2000), ICSC Diocesan Profiles (2002-2007),CARA/Emerging Models (2010)<

Amount given weekly by parish household in 2000 was $8.33 ($433.16 yearly) compared to 2010 at $9.57 ($497.64 yearly)

I'll repost the numbers from barna. Notice this is giving to all non-profit groups.

Christians tend to be the most generous group of donors. An examination of the three dominant subgroups within the Christian community showed that evangelicals, the 7% of the population who are most committed to the Christian faith, donated a mean of $4260 to all non-profit entities in 2007. Non-evangelical born again Christians, who represent another 37% of the public, donated a mean of $1581. The other 42% of the Christian population, who are aligned with a Christian church but are not born again, donated a mean of $865. Overall, the three segments of the Christian community averaged donations of $1426.

The Christian giving was divided between Protestants (mean of $1705) and Catholics ($984).

btw...I noticed you didn't answer my question on whether you tithe of the gross or the net.

236 posted on 04/25/2015 8:35:44 PM PDT by ealgeone
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To: Salvation

Courtesy ping.


237 posted on 04/25/2015 8:37:08 PM PDT by Resettozero
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To: LurkingSince'98
Value of services provided by Catholic Charities in the year 2014 - $3.696b

Whoa.....stop the train there. The value of services given??

Who is doing the valuing?

So you go from an "iffing" figure of $30 billion down to a somewhat more verifiable $3.6 billion???

Man, you've got a future in government with the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics!

238 posted on 04/25/2015 8:42:08 PM PDT by ealgeone
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To: Resettozero

Sell some of that artwork and other properties, give proceeds to the poor, then get back to me about.

What the Catholic Church did give to the poor from just one agency in 2014 was $3.69 BILLION per CARA the only official Catholic source for statistical data.

Why dont you sell something and pony up your contribution.

AMDG


239 posted on 04/25/2015 8:43:17 PM PDT by LurkingSince'98 (Ad Majoram Dei Gloriam = FOR THE GREATER GLORY OF GOD)
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To: LurkingSince'98; metmom
You obviously dont understand what breaking a vow made to God means -unless you are divorced. I dont think you get that it doesnt matter who breaks their vows - they are BROKEN. Luther was excommunicated and became anathema because he deserved it.

Luther was excommunicated because he wouldn't back down on the truth of the gospel and bow down to Rome's perversion of it, NOT because he left the priesthood and got married.

Tell me, are there CURRENT Roman Catholic priests who have left and gotten married? Are they STILL considered Catholics in good standing even after having done so or does Rome excommunicate them, too? And...aren't there married Roman Catholic priests today?

How pitiful that Luther has become the go-to trump card Roman Catholic apologists imagine they can pull out of their sleeve and halt all further disagreements. Surprise, surprise! It don't work!

240 posted on 04/25/2015 8:43:46 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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