Posted on 04/22/2015 2:34:02 PM PDT by RnMomof7
Within Roman Catholicism (and within some other churches as well) there are prayers that are made for, through, and to the dead. We, as Reformed believers, reject all three of these categories but on different grounds. In discussing these issues with Roman Catholics it may be useful to be able to understand the different categories and to explain why it is that we reject each. We should pray for the living, to the living and true God, through the merits and intercession of Christ alone.
1. Prayers For the Dead
In Roman Catholicism, there is a belief in Purgatory. Although Roman Catholics give varying explanations, a popular perception is that purgatory is a place where, through a period of suffering, the soul is purged of sin (it's worth noting that some Roman Catholics today deny that Purgatory is either an actual place or that it has actual time, but we'll leave that for another discussion).
Those within Purgatory want to be purged of their sins (in Roman Catholic theology) but they also want to get out of there and on to heaven. So people are encouraged to pray for the souls of the deceased, for relief/escape from Purgatory. After all, apparently, this suffering can be alleviated through the granting of an indulgence to the person in purgatory.
The Bible, however, teaches that the souls of believers are, at their death made perfect in holiness and do immediately pass into glory. (See Thomas Watson's discussion, for a more detailed discussion.) Given this, prayers for dead believers are useless, since believers are already in heaven.
Furthermore, while certain folks have (from time to time) suggested that salvation is still possible in hell, it is not. Of course, this itself is not normally disputed by Roman Catholics, who recognize that there is no escape from hell itself. Thus, prayers for dead unbelievers are also useless, since unbelievers are already in hell, from which they cannot escape.
Thus, there is no third category - no third option that exists, where prayers for the deceased would have any value. Accordingly, we reject prayers for the dead as vain and superstitious, and we do not engage in such prayers.
2. Prayers To the Dead
In Roman Catholicism there are, from time to time, prayers to the dead. I would be quick to point out Mary, but this doctrine they have of the Assumption of Mary leaves it unclear whether they really consider Mary to be dead or resurrected (although, of course, as a matter of objective fact, she is dead and awaits the resurrection of the faithful). Aside from Mary, however, other saints are sometimes prayed to within Catholicism. One particularly popular saint in English-speaking countries is St. Jude (aka Judas not Iscariot, one of the twelve apostles), the patron saint of lost causes.
We, Reformed Christians, reject such prayers for several reasons. First, there is no reason at all to think that such prayers will be heard and understood by the dead. Second, not only does Scripture not encourage attempted communication with the dead, it condemns such attempts as witchcraft and necromancy. Third, the use of such prayers suggests a lack of faith in the efficacy of prayers directly to the Father. Fourth, the use of such prayers suggests a desire for the mediation of someone other than Christ, an issue that flows over into the next section, below.
This is one of those areas where Roman Catholic apologists are very eager these days to recast the issue in terms like "we're just asking our fellow believers to pray for us, are you saying that's wrong?" The answer to that question is that we do not object to asking fellow believers to pray for us. In fact, we ought to do so. James 5:16 Confess [your] faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
However, while many of the prayers to the dead are explicitly prayers that the dead would hear the person and pray to God for the person, that simply avoids the most grotesque abuses of the practice, such as when things are requested specifically from the saints or Mary, which are not theirs to give (such as success, grace, salvation, etc.). Those prayers (meta-prayers that request prayer by the saint to whom the prayers are offered) suffer from the objections as to the lack of warrant or example from the Scriptures as well as from the apparent view that these saints are to serve as mediators rather than Christ. As this is not a direct answer to the Romanist objections, I won't go on at greater length here.
3. Prayers Through the Dead
Roman Catholics sometimes explicitly, sometimes implicitly, offer up prayers that are through the dead. For example, the "Approved Prayer for the intercession of Pope John Paul II" (link) is a prayer that is not for John Paul II (JP2) or to JP2 but it is through JP2. It is addressed to God, "O Holy Trinity," but it requests that something be granted "Grant us," via the intercession of JP2 "through his intercession ... ."
Other times the request is more indirect. For example, sometimes when Mary (or others) are entreated it is suggested (as a justification) that since "the prayer of a righteous man availeth much" that the more righteous a person is, the more their prayer will avail (although, of course, the Scriptures do not teach such any such formula). Consequently, the idea is that we are asking these creatures to intercede before God on the basis of the merits that are theirs.
The connection between the two can be seen in this prayer to God pleading the merit and intercession of Rita of Cascia:
O God! who didst deign to confer on St. Rita for imitating Thee in love of her enemies, the favor of bearing her heart and brow the marks of Thy Love and Passion, grant we beseech Thee, that through her intercession and merit, we may, pierced by the thorns of compunction, ever contemplate the sufferings of Thy Passion, who livest and reignest forever and ever. Amen.(emphasis added - source)
(emphasis added - source)Prayer to Our Lady of Light
O radiant beam of celestial clarity,
O spotless Mother of infinite purity,
O seat of Wisdom and divine reliquary
of the Word Incarnate,
Hear my prayer,
O Queen of Light!
O Blessed Trinity,
Father, Son, and Holy Spirit,
You glorified my Mother, Mary,
as Queen of heaven and earth
and gave to her the gift of holding
Your Omnipotence in her holy hands,
Graciously grant what I seek
through her merits and intercession.
Amen.
956 The intercession of the saints. "Being more closely united to Christ, those who dwell in heaven fix the whole Church more firmly in holiness.... They do not cease to intercede with the Father for us, as they proffer the merits which they acquired on earth through the one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus.... So by their fraternal concern is our weakness greatly helped."(emphases and elipses in original - footnote omitted - source)
ET: If you are so sure of your salvation, do you even pray anymore? Do you still keep the Ten Commandments?
Or are you on "cruise control" now?
ET, I hope you realize you are presenting a well-recognized and worn thin straw man here. Not one FRevangelical you are arguing with here believes that sin is OK. Not. one. My question to you is this: Do the RCs who regularly repeat this gross falsehood really believe we believe that? An honest question. I'm trying to figure this out.
Because we've made it very clear for a very long time what we believe. Salvation is secure, yes, but it is also transformative. Our old reprobate self, if that's all we had after salvation, would certainly see blanket forgiveness as an excuse for rampant sinning. But that's not what salvation is. Not in Scripture, and not to us. It is a life-changing event. We don't become perfect, but we do become motivated passionately to follow Jesus, and passionately to avoid sin. It's a real change, from the heart, or it isn't real salvation. That's our belief, and that's our personal testimony.
So I'm asking, do you wish to state for the record you did not know we believed that way, or never heard that about us before? Or is it that somehow you just don't believe we really believe that, no matter what we say? I am genuinely curious.
Because for all our differences, this is something we. could. actually. resolve! All we'd have to do is agree to believe each other when we say we really believe sin is bad and to be avoided. Then we could bookmark it, create a thread memorializing resolved issues, which we could ever after refer to and say, look, by accord of an "ecumenical council" between the FR RC's and P/E's, this issue is no longer in contest between us. Think how great that would be! Then we could go on to find some other low hanging fruit, things we could agree on, and eventually maybe we could even have shorter threads. Readable threads! Wouldn't that be great? Well, wouldn't it?
Peace,
SR.
Well let me just say that yours and others posts are not wasted breath....for they “equip the saints” ...with teachings they might not otherwise have....and this in order to go out into the world and tell the catholics who will listen.
I have proof...:)
Why thank you...I have put that with my “required reading” list. It looks easily understandable from what I have already read.
I did read some about this in the past for my own understanding but would be good to have a refresher course to put under my belt as opposition to ‘all things’ of God has been escalating more and more. So I’m being quite selective in my studies of late.
Francis is quite busy trying to bring the religions to common ground of understanding and appears to be the Globalists ideal for that as he jets around the world....this along with the Emerging Church as a partner and that of the World Council.
So we continue to arm ourselves....as that time draws near closer yet.
......”a backlash of accusations of “hate”, “Catholic bashing”, spreading of discord and ignorance of Catholic doctrine.”.....
It does derail/distracts from the topic of debate....and if there’s no debate then truth is never revealed.
Maybe it’s just time to scroll on by when they “insert” such statements into their responses until they’re ready to present their case....that is if they can make a case.
Thankfully, there are a few Catholics who are good representatives and who don't shy away from explaining their beliefs. We may never agree on all things, but their respectful and gentle attitudes do far more good than the nasty and insulting tone taken by others. We should all be mindful of this and not allow our feelings to get injured in the fray in such a way that we forget for whom we are speaking and WHY we are doing it.
Curious challenge coming from someone who has this as their tagline:
"We have a rogue curia in Rome".
So, which denomination of Catholicism is the best for you? Traditionalist, SSPX, Sedavacanist, Modernist, Conservative, Liberal, Opus Dei, Jesuits, Dominicans, etc.???
ROTFLMAO. What do you call Christ's physical sacrifice on the Cross?
Wow. Nice straw man there. The physical act referenced was your statement of baptism causing salvation.
Sheesh. And Catholics want to be taken seriously.
Hoss
Funny; I thought the very same thing about your post:
I really like it how each of y’all speaks for how everybody else believes. Everybody is his own chief, each speaking for the same thousand tribes.
Pot meet Kettle
Hoss
That's the problem with the Roman Catholic Cult: page flipping, but no reading.
Hoss
Wonder if the poster believes the CCC?
Hoss
We have Papists who are positive that salvation is through the Roman Catholic Church even though their "infallible" magisterium is filled with sodomites and leftists who have been changing even their own theology right beneath the true-believers' dumb noses.
You should get a load what crap your church teaches even in their approved biblical commentaries, and you guys want us to kneel and scrape and beg for salvation from you guys when most of you aren't capable of much more than very basic and puerile apology in defense of your works-righteous doctrines?
Come now, I'll stick with the holy scripture, and sit at rest with Luther, with Calvin, with John Knox, with the tens of thousands of Christians who have been martyed for their faith, and with Augustine, and Chrysostom, and so many others, on the essentials of the Gospel. You guys don't even have the essentials anymore.
Show me examples of Catholic unity.
Show me that ALL Catholics hold exactly the same views on all moral issues and church teaching.
Show me that a top down authoritarian structure guarantees unity of belief amongst the laity and clergy and fidelity to it.
Explain to me how the EO can hold different views on significant areas, like the supremacy of the pope and doctrine about Mary and still be considered in communion with Rome.
Paul tells us in Corinthians that very thing.
The Rock (petra) is Christ.
Dude....I've already told you to get off that catholic high horse.
How many catholics get drunk on a weekly basis?
How many catholics have affairs?
How many catholics use drugs?
How many catholic priests abuse little boys?
How many have been fired?
How many catholics vote for dimocrats that support abortion, homosexual rights, etc?
How may catholics read their bible on a regular basis?
How many catholics attend church on a weekly basis?
You see....we can keep playing this game.
How many catholics don't know their own ccc?
How many catholics on this board have different beliefs on the various topics?
Remember what I said about the play ground?
Do all Catholics agree on abortion and gay marriage?
No, because those are RCC issues and there are widely varying beliefs about all of them.
Most FRoman Catolics on this board have issues with your position on Catholicism and we all have seen that.
So explain to me again how unified Catholics are in what they believe.....
So if people are incapable of correctly interpreting Scripture, then they aren’t capalbe of correctly interpreting the church’s interpretation of it and need someone to interpret the interpretation.
Nor are they capable of correctly interpreting the CCC and need someone to correctly interpret THAT, and the interpretation of that.
And so it goes on forever, interpreting the interpretations....
Proof required.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.