Posted on 04/22/2015 2:34:02 PM PDT by RnMomof7
Within Roman Catholicism (and within some other churches as well) there are prayers that are made for, through, and to the dead. We, as Reformed believers, reject all three of these categories but on different grounds. In discussing these issues with Roman Catholics it may be useful to be able to understand the different categories and to explain why it is that we reject each. We should pray for the living, to the living and true God, through the merits and intercession of Christ alone.
1. Prayers For the Dead
In Roman Catholicism, there is a belief in Purgatory. Although Roman Catholics give varying explanations, a popular perception is that purgatory is a place where, through a period of suffering, the soul is purged of sin (it's worth noting that some Roman Catholics today deny that Purgatory is either an actual place or that it has actual time, but we'll leave that for another discussion).
Those within Purgatory want to be purged of their sins (in Roman Catholic theology) but they also want to get out of there and on to heaven. So people are encouraged to pray for the souls of the deceased, for relief/escape from Purgatory. After all, apparently, this suffering can be alleviated through the granting of an indulgence to the person in purgatory.
The Bible, however, teaches that the souls of believers are, at their death made perfect in holiness and do immediately pass into glory. (See Thomas Watson's discussion, for a more detailed discussion.) Given this, prayers for dead believers are useless, since believers are already in heaven.
Furthermore, while certain folks have (from time to time) suggested that salvation is still possible in hell, it is not. Of course, this itself is not normally disputed by Roman Catholics, who recognize that there is no escape from hell itself. Thus, prayers for dead unbelievers are also useless, since unbelievers are already in hell, from which they cannot escape.
Thus, there is no third category - no third option that exists, where prayers for the deceased would have any value. Accordingly, we reject prayers for the dead as vain and superstitious, and we do not engage in such prayers.
2. Prayers To the Dead
In Roman Catholicism there are, from time to time, prayers to the dead. I would be quick to point out Mary, but this doctrine they have of the Assumption of Mary leaves it unclear whether they really consider Mary to be dead or resurrected (although, of course, as a matter of objective fact, she is dead and awaits the resurrection of the faithful). Aside from Mary, however, other saints are sometimes prayed to within Catholicism. One particularly popular saint in English-speaking countries is St. Jude (aka Judas not Iscariot, one of the twelve apostles), the patron saint of lost causes.
We, Reformed Christians, reject such prayers for several reasons. First, there is no reason at all to think that such prayers will be heard and understood by the dead. Second, not only does Scripture not encourage attempted communication with the dead, it condemns such attempts as witchcraft and necromancy. Third, the use of such prayers suggests a lack of faith in the efficacy of prayers directly to the Father. Fourth, the use of such prayers suggests a desire for the mediation of someone other than Christ, an issue that flows over into the next section, below.
This is one of those areas where Roman Catholic apologists are very eager these days to recast the issue in terms like "we're just asking our fellow believers to pray for us, are you saying that's wrong?" The answer to that question is that we do not object to asking fellow believers to pray for us. In fact, we ought to do so. James 5:16 Confess [your] faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
However, while many of the prayers to the dead are explicitly prayers that the dead would hear the person and pray to God for the person, that simply avoids the most grotesque abuses of the practice, such as when things are requested specifically from the saints or Mary, which are not theirs to give (such as success, grace, salvation, etc.). Those prayers (meta-prayers that request prayer by the saint to whom the prayers are offered) suffer from the objections as to the lack of warrant or example from the Scriptures as well as from the apparent view that these saints are to serve as mediators rather than Christ. As this is not a direct answer to the Romanist objections, I won't go on at greater length here.
3. Prayers Through the Dead
Roman Catholics sometimes explicitly, sometimes implicitly, offer up prayers that are through the dead. For example, the "Approved Prayer for the intercession of Pope John Paul II" (link) is a prayer that is not for John Paul II (JP2) or to JP2 but it is through JP2. It is addressed to God, "O Holy Trinity," but it requests that something be granted "Grant us," via the intercession of JP2 "through his intercession ... ."
Other times the request is more indirect. For example, sometimes when Mary (or others) are entreated it is suggested (as a justification) that since "the prayer of a righteous man availeth much" that the more righteous a person is, the more their prayer will avail (although, of course, the Scriptures do not teach such any such formula). Consequently, the idea is that we are asking these creatures to intercede before God on the basis of the merits that are theirs.
The connection between the two can be seen in this prayer to God pleading the merit and intercession of Rita of Cascia:
O God! who didst deign to confer on St. Rita for imitating Thee in love of her enemies, the favor of bearing her heart and brow the marks of Thy Love and Passion, grant we beseech Thee, that through her intercession and merit, we may, pierced by the thorns of compunction, ever contemplate the sufferings of Thy Passion, who livest and reignest forever and ever. Amen.(emphasis added - source)
(emphasis added - source)Prayer to Our Lady of Light
O radiant beam of celestial clarity,
O spotless Mother of infinite purity,
O seat of Wisdom and divine reliquary
of the Word Incarnate,
Hear my prayer,
O Queen of Light!
O Blessed Trinity,
Father, Son, and Holy Spirit,
You glorified my Mother, Mary,
as Queen of heaven and earth
and gave to her the gift of holding
Your Omnipotence in her holy hands,
Graciously grant what I seek
through her merits and intercession.
Amen.
956 The intercession of the saints. "Being more closely united to Christ, those who dwell in heaven fix the whole Church more firmly in holiness.... They do not cease to intercede with the Father for us, as they proffer the merits which they acquired on earth through the one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus.... So by their fraternal concern is our weakness greatly helped."(emphases and elipses in original - footnote omitted - source)
Just not true ...He stands cursed to hell by Rome, along with all Protestants ...even Rome's "loving" Pope francis has cursed him
Again.
Which means, Reset, that there is still a chance for the truth of The Gospel -- God's truth, not Catholic Cultism -- to be heard! If The Lord wills, we can hope and pray he uses this forum to reach the lost.
:D
Hoss
"In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ ACCORDING TO MY GOSPEL." (Rom. 2:16).
Evidently, according to this, we had BETTER know the gospel. And Paul called it: "MY GOSPEL". So where would we expect to find this gospel given to Paul? And why does he call it his gospel? food for thought..
Ask David, a man that God describes as a man "after His own heart"
Scripture tells us that if we break one "commandment " we have broken them all
So a man that lies is an idolator, a murderer, a blasphemer , an adulterer.
When we use other men and their sins as our standard we rob God of His absolute Holiness... All sin is an abomination to God...
Yes, Salvation and all others who believe this is not possible. Humanly speaking, it probably wouldn't be. But we are speaking of God and HIS plan of salvation. So we have to see it through God's eyes, not man's.
The very fact that Christ DIED for our sins, He did not IGNORE our sins, tells us the price was more than we could ever hope to pay. And how many of our sins were future when He died for them? ALL of them. From the day we were born until the day we die. He paid for all of them. That is just the reason we care NOT to disappoint Him. If I murder someone, it's not a question if Christ has forgiven me, it's a question of if I can ever forgive MYSELF for causing Christ to suffer for my sin. And it goes to EVERY sin, not just the "big ones". They are all an affront to God. That's why He PAID for them, not overlooked them.
Nobody you say?
1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
True believers have been given the anointing of the Holy Spirit. It is those individuals who throughout scripture are not only expected to but required to understand what is in scripture. No where in scripture does Christ assign a "vicar" or "magisterium" to stand in for Him. He promised each believer the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. There is no difference between the apostles and us as believers in that regard.
Acts 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Listening to the falsehoods of the Catholic Church robs people of much of the truth of scripture.
And it's so obvious by some of the comments they make. It's sad. My heart breaks to realize how much they are missing.
Moses
David
Saul (the apostle Paul)
John tells us that if anyone has hated his brother, he has a ready murdered him in his heart.
The farce is saying there's a sin that God can't or won't forgive.
Now that you put it that way...
You are right again, Hoss.
R2z
Now that you put it that way...
You are right again, Hoss.
R2z
Are you listening to some man or strictly what you read in scripture? How often did Jesus say "it is written" when correcting or teaching? God consistently told people to write what He told them. Scripture is the word of God. Paul said anyone who something they didn't should be considered accursed. He also commended the Bereans for checking with scripture to make sure even what he was teaching was correct. I can assure you that those denomination that disagree are also listening to men and what they teach rather than scripture alone.
Amen
The Pharisees also gloated over the presumption that they were worthy of Heaven because they studied the Law and used it every chance they could to gloat over another's perceived condemnation.
BTW: Since this is bound to come up-
The Second Vatican Council speaks of salvation outside the Church in Lumen Gentium, nos. 14 and 16. Here are the pertinent sections from those two articles: 14. This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mk 16:16; Jn 3:5) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved. [. . .] 16. [. . .] Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel. She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life.
What i mean by"never differentiated between bishops and elders" was that of referring to two ordained pastoral offices, which i think you concur with me on. And that there was no class of clergy distinctively titled "hiereus"="priest."
I believe the elders were basically the ones who were aged or had been long with the Christian knowledge.
There is no disagreement there, as Titus was to ordain mature qualified men, presbuteros (senior/elder), but he was to ordain such as elders in the formal sense, who are also called episkopos (superintendent/overseer).
Both Timothy and Titus were to pick elders and to appoint them to the position of Bishops and deacons.
Rather, the text you cited, Titus 1:5-7, uses presbuteros (senior/elder) and episkopos (superintendent/overseer) interchangeably, instructing pastor Titus to appoint presbuteros and thus telling him what the qualifications of a episkopos were to be.
Presbuteros likely is used to refer to the character of the person as a mature person, while episkopos refers to his function.
Also see,
And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church. (Acts 20:17)
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. (Acts 20:28)
What’s the English translation for Lumen Gentium???
“I will send the Holy Spirit... To teach you ALL things...”(ephasis mine)
Don’t you believe His Word? I take it as a promise, not a premise!
And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church. (Acts 20:17)
The bishops and deacons were still elders but the elders were not necessarily bishops and deacons.
>>In 2 Timothy 1:16-18, St. Paul wrote of his friend Onesiphorous: “May the Lord grant unto him to find the mercy of the Lord on that day” (that is, the Day of Judgment). The context of St. Paul’s remarks suggests that Onesiphorous was already dead (see 2 Tm 1:18 and 4:19).<<
It is the Prots and apostates who are calling St. Paul a heretic, not the Catholics.
Are you sure?
You seemed offended in your Post 151.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.