Posted on 04/20/2015 1:46:59 PM PDT by NYer
God prohibits the bowing down to images.
Y’all can dispute and debate what y’all call worship and claim you’re not doing it all you want, but bowing down is bowing down and there is plenty of evidence that THAT is happening.
“But that has little to do with praying to saints.”
Sure it does. The saints are His greatest works - and our family. Veneration of the saints, asking for their intercession doesn’t take anything away from their Creator, Redeemer or Sanctifier. It’s actually more praise for Them.
So when God says He forgives and forgets sin He still brings them up again and again? Really?
I believe you're being misled by a certain ambiguity of the term "pray" in English.
(I realize from our past conversations that you think this is just quibbling about words, but really, a proper discernment of meaning is essential. Without it, all conversation becomes futile.)
Whether we call it "praying to" or "praying for" or "praying about," praying does not mean "adoration." All the ways we share our spiritual gifts in the Communion of Saints can be called "praying."
Prayer for each other always presupposes the supremacy of Jesus Christ, Who is the Head of the Body (a very important truth, that) as the primary cause Who frequently works through secondary causes.
Even when we pray for ourselves, we are "secondary causes," because God already knows what is in our hearts before we even think the words. This being so, why do we pray?
We pray because it is a need of the heart, and because God commanded it. HE does not need it. He knows all things before they come to pass. But He knows WE need it.
Upon reflection, I believe the same is true of every kind of intercessory prayer, whether it involves the faithful here on earth, the saints in heaven, the poor souls or the holy angels. We need to cultivate our personal contact with each other, our awareness that we are, all alike, members of the Body of Christ.
Look at how frequently we are told to pray for one another (1 Thessalonians 5:25; 2 Thes. 3:1; Colossians 4:3; Hebrews 13:18; Ephesians 6:18). We are urged to make supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings for all men (1 Timothy 2:1). Such prayer pleases God: This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth (1 Tim. 2:3-4).
From he earliest centuries Christians have understood these Scriptural teachings to apply to the entire Body of Christ. Those who reject this in effect, cut off an entire portion of the Body of Christ. They fail to pray for the faithful departed, and neglect to ask the Saints in glory to pray for us. This is a mistake, because Scripture calls for us to "have the same care for one another," sharing our sufferings and our joys with the other parts of the Body.
>>Please send me the name of any Catholic FReeper who has ever said that we don't pray to saints.<<
Now when shown they do deny it you attempt to justify or somehow cloud the issue? The duplicity is staggering.
Your remarks seem well-thought-out and well-intended. I appreciate that -— man, it’s like water in the desert.
Why, thank you! That's really true, as long as you understand "cult" to mean "devotional group" and "of personalities" to mean "comprising all the members of the Communion of Saints."
A devotional group comprising all the members of the Communion of Saints. Oft thought but ne'er so well expressed.
Yes! God bless you, that is exactly what I am saying.
True.
But that doesn't refer to the Catholic Church, which teaches and practices the adoration of God alone.
From the Gloria, which is said or sung at every Sunday Mass:
"You alone are the Holy One.
You alone are the Lord.
You alone are the Most High,
Jesus Christ, with the Holy Spirit,
in the glory of the Father.
Amen. "
Jesus may love us all but Im pretty sure Jesus is NOT approving of the actions and speech of those of you who carry hatred and bigotry in your hearts.
First of all "Jesus does not "love" us all"
He loves those that are HIS
Rightly dividing the word of God is not "unloving"
Correcting false doctrine is not "unloving"
What is unloving is allowing people to never hear the truth of the gospel ..
I’ll bet you have real problems with Jesus words to the Pharisees of His time.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3059418/posts?page=292#292
I think that the Biblical example is of vital importance for our correct understanding. This is especially for you, metmom.
If you do not allow people to explain what they mean, then they can't communicate with you. And that would be sad.
Just because you say this every Sunday doesn't mean that it is sincere. That could just be proof that the following verses are true. The actions of the Roman Catholics often don't seem consistent with their words: "It might look like worship but clearly it's not because it's really veneration." If it waddles like a duck and quack like a duck ... well, you know the rest.
Then the Lord said, "Because this people draw near with their words And honor Me with their lip service, But they remove their hearts far from Me, And their reverence for Me consists of tradition learned by rote... (Isaiah 29:13)
The Lord quoting the same verse: This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men. (Matthew 15:8-9)
If you do not mean "intentional falsehood," then you might mean an intellectual incapacity to distinguish "adoration or worship (latria)" from "veneration or honor (dulia)". In other words, a failure to differentiate properly between kinds and degrees of reverence.
But that particular incapacity seems to be the fault, not of the Catholic Church, but of some of her critics.
Here's an important insight from a Biblical point of view:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3059418/posts?page=292#292
And just more of the same from the YOPIO....
the Catechism of the Catholic church
the popes
the Bible
the early church fathers
“sacred tradition”
whatever they choose to beleive.
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