Thumbs up or thumbs down on Rome?

Reformation500 ^ | February 23, 2010 | John Bugay

[RnMomof7]

One commenter said:

The way you write, I guess, seems to me to reveal a near certainty concerning the falsity of Catholic Doctrine. It seems as though you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Catholicism simply couldn’t be true. And you’re willing to hang everything on that confidence.

Too often, an argument is put forth in this form: “Protestantism has lots of problems. Therefore, Catholicism.”

I once looked at it this way myself. I was hanging around some close friends who were starting a fellowship for “completed Jews,” — that is, these were all Jewish people who had become believers, and they first started an informal fellowship, and then a church. But by this second phase, they were getting hung up on issues of leadership, church structure, etc. There were a lot of different ways they could have done this, but their disagreements over such issues led me to say, “the Catholic church has already been through these kinds of issues; they have decided upon a resolution to them, so I’m going home to Rome.” And that’s just what I did.

Francis Turretin, at the beginning of Volume 3 of his three volume “Institutes” states, in summary form, he says that Protestants (rightly) look to Scripture, and they determine what “the true faith” is by studying and understanding what the Scriptures say on a doctrine-by-doctrine, or point-by-point basis. And this needs to be done.

But Catholics, Turretin says, simply sweep all of this aside with one motion. They say, “We are The Church, and we decide what ‘the true faith’ is.”

And I think that the imbalance in this form of argumentation accounts for many of the misunderstandings that continue to occur in these types of discussions in our day.

In Turretin’s time, Roman polemicists attempted to prove their position. They argued, for instance, that the Roman church had never changed, that it was the Protestants who introduced novelty into the ongoing sweep of church history.

But by Newman’s time, Newman was realizing that Rome, too, had (“seemingly”) introduced “difficulties” — that neither Rome nor the Protestant churches adhered to the 5th century Vincentian rule: “what was believed always, everywhere, by all.” In fact, he summarily dismissed this as unworkable for both parties.

However, the position that Turretin noticed Roman polemicists were arguing for, “We are The Church, and we decide what ‘the true faith’ is,” was in Newman’s formulation, merely an assumption. That is, Newman assumed (and taught Roman polemicists to assume) that the authority structure that was present in his day, was “in some way” the same authority structure that was in place in the 2nd, 7th, and subsequent centuries.

My thought is that this assumption must not be allowed to stand unchallenged. And especially in the face of such historical evidence as I’ve presented — the historians I’ve cited DO present an alternative church structure that is far more viable, because it is based on real-life evidence that has been discovered.

So what I want to do is to really change the terms of the argument. To bring it out of Newman’s world of fuzzy assumptions, and to force Rome to argue that its conception of itself is right. If its conception of its own history and authority are right, then the evidences that it brings forth to support such contentions will be more than adequate to convince an unbelieving world.

My contention is that it cannot do so. My contention is that the work that I am presenting is also known to “the Magisterium” at Rome. The mere fact that “the Magisterium,” even the CDF, is conceding that “we are conscious of development in the primacy” is a huge historical concession. If Luther and Calvin had had a concession like that, the course of the Reformation could have been different.

We have that kind of concession today. It was forced by historical evidence.

People now need to ask the one question: “Did the Roman church come by its authority in a legitimate way?” Was its authority “divinely instituted,” as  it never tires of reminding us that it is? Or was this authority accumulated through less-than-honest means?

Looking at the early history of the papacy, and the evidence we have of how it came about, I don’t see that the answer to this question is in doubt.

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[CatherineofAragon]

I’ll second your experience, wardaddy.

I’ve personally never heard a single pastor (Baptist, Evangelical, or Pentecostal) say a word against Catholics.

My husband’s cousin and his wife & kids converted to Catholicism a few years back. We all get along at family functions without a bit of fighting...imagine that.

[CynicalBear]

The pope and several Protestant pastors prayed with the Muslims also - imagine that. One world religion here we come!

[LurkingSince'98]

Again, It is funny and also that you know more about what Catholics experience than Catholics do.

Your experience is lacking - you need to listen more and talk less.

Ad Majoram Dei Gloriam

[CatherineofAragon]

"you need to listen more and talk less."

LOL

[LurkingSince'98]

It seems like you also know all about what Catholics experience.

Unless your Catholic you haven’t a clue.

AMDG

[LurkingSince'98]

Your = you’re

[CatherineofAragon]

I have Catholic friends who would laugh at your insistence on playing the victim.

It’s not an attractive trait.

[LurkingSince'98]

Your insistence on demonstrating how little you and your ‘catholic’ friends know about opression of Catholics is childlike.

OUTSIDERS ATTACK CATHOLIC SCHOOLS
Catholic League ^ | April 16, 2015 | Bill Donohue
Posted on April 17, 2015 at 4:30:05 PM CDT by NYer

esBill Donohue comments on several campaigns against Catholic schools:

We never hear of attempts by outsiders to dictate to Jews how to run their yeshivas. The same is true of the increasing number of Islamic schools: no one tells Muslims what their employment policies should be. The same is not true of Catholic schools.

In San Francisco, outsiders have spent an enormous amount of money seeking to pressure the Archdiocese to change its prospective handbook for faculty.
Outsiders, driven by the media, put Iowa Governor Terry Branstad on the firing line: they forced him to comment on Dowling Catholic High School’s decision not to hire an openly gay teacher; the Catholic executive exercised good sense and is not getting involved in the internal matters of this school.
A Sommerville, New Jersey Catholic teacher was reinstated after outsiders pressured the school to sanction her for making allegedly anti-gay remarks.
A stink was made by outsiders when they learned that a teacher at a Catholic high school in Omaha, Nebraska did not have his contract renewed; administrators found that he claimed to be engaged to his boyfriend.
The Obama administration’s Equal Employment Opportunity Commission issued a complaint earlier this year against a Georgia Catholic academy because it fired a gay teacher who planned to marry his boyfriend.
It is one thing for Catholic alumni, faculty, and students to register misgivings about school employment policies, quite another when the government, non-profits, local activists, celebrities, the media, and corporations stick their noses in where they don’t belong.

Moreover, teachers are not being fired, or hired, because they happen to be gay: they are being rejected because they are flaunting their gay lifestyle. That’s not a small difference

[steve8714]

Only Protestants worry about the Magisterium.

[Iscool]

23 Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.”

Since this has never happened in the scriptures, and never happened in recorded history, doesn't it occur to you that maybe you misunderstand this verse???

[LurkingSince'98]

And oppression comes from within too, could be from folks just like your ‘catholic’ friends...

Under Intensified Attack, Archbishop Cordileone Enjoys Renewed Support from San Francisco Catholics
National Review ^ | 4/18/15 | Anne B. Hendershott
Posted on April 18, 2015 at 8:06:06 AM CDT by markomalley

A look at some of the signers of the open letter to Pope Francis.

Escalating the attacks on Archbishop Salvatore Cordileone of San Francisco for continuing to uphold Catholic teachings, 100 self-described “Catholic leaders” have signed an open letter to Pope Francis, calling for the archbishop’s removal. In a full-page ad in the San Francisco Chronicle on Thursday, the petitioners claim that Cordileone has “fostered an atmosphere of division and intolerance” by asking K–12 Catholic-school teachers in the Bay area to “violate their individual consciences by accepting a morality code” based on the Church’s teachings.

“Instead of your famous words, ‘Whom am I to Judge?’Archbishop Cordileone has repeatedly labeled the behavior of our fellow brothers and sister (and their children) as ‘gravely evil,’” the open letter to Pope Francis reads. Concluding that the “City of Saint Francis deserves an Archbishop true to our values and to your teachings,” the signers charge that “the Archdiocese is threatened by Archbishop Cordileone’s single-issue agenda.”

The truth is that for many of those who signed the letter to the pontiff, the single issue of promoting same sex-marriage has been the motivating force of their activities for more than a decade. Sam Singer, the infamous public-relations maven who was hired to launch a media blitz to defeat the archbishop’s policy of strengthening the Catholic identity of San Francisco’s Catholic schools, is leading this attack against the archbishop but has plenty of help from disgruntled former employees of the archdiocese who are functioning as foot soldiers in the current war on Cordileone.

Among the signers of the letter is Brian Cahill, for example, who has been criticizing the Catholic Church for her teachings on homosexuality since long before Archbishop Cordileone ever arrived. Cahill publicly denounced Catholic such teachings even during his tenure as executive director of Catholic Charities/Catholic Youth Organization in the Archdiocese of San Francisco. In the San Francisco Chronicle 2011, he wrote, “I am a Catholic who voted against Proposition 8 in 2008 and contributed $1,000 to the No on 8 Campaign.” The opinion piece appeared under the headline “My Gay Son: The Face of Church’s Lack of Respect.”

It is understandable that Cahill would be less than welcoming to Archbishop Cordileone, who helped lead ecumenical efforts to pass Proposition 8 and ensure that marriage would continue to be defined as a union between one man and one woman. While still leader of Catholic Charities/CYO, Cahill, repudiating Catholic policies that prevented gay couples from adopting children through his organization, allowed several children to be adopted by gay parents.

In a story in the Bay Area Reporter in 2006, he was quoted as denying that Catholic teaching on marriage and family life prevented gay adoptions, and he “was optimistic his agency could find some way to resolve the issue without shutting down its adoption program.” In 2002, Glen Motola, director of programs and services of San Francisco Catholic Charities, adopted a child with his male partner. Even after the decree came from the Vatican in 2006 to end adoption by same-sex couples, Cahill was adamant that “any story saying his agency had stopped allowing gay parents to adopt was completely inaccurate.”

Cahill had plenty of support for his views. The article in the Bay Area Reporter continued: “Nanette Miller, a lesbian and member of Catholic Charities’ board, said she is also hopeful that the agency can come up with a positive solution, such as when the archdiocese figured out a way to adhere to the city’s requirement under the equal benefits ordination that it extend domestic partner benefits to employees so as not to lose its funding.” It should surprise no one that many of those who signed Thursday’s open letter to Archbishop Cordileone were former employees or board members of Cahill’s Catholic Charities/CYO, including Clint Reilly, former chair of the board, Catholic Charities; Suzanne Swift and Brian Switft, both former members of the board of directors of Catholic Charities/CYO. In addition to the board members, several of those who signed the open letter worked for Catholic Charities or the CYO as employees or volunteer coaches.

Archbishop Cordileone is not the first bishop Cahill has gone after. In 2012 in the San Francisco Chronicle, he attacked the U.S. Catholic bishops collectively for opposing the Health and Human Services contraception mandate. Claiming that “the bishops have no credibility with their teachings on contraception,” Cahill maintained that “the issue of conscience only seems to arise over matters of sexuality.”

Sam Singer knows that Brian Cahill is a “useful idiot” in his plan to destroy Archbishop Cordileone. Still, it is understandable that Cahill would like the Church to change her teachings on homosexuality. He loves his gay son and wants the best for him. Having lost his other son, John Francis Cahill, to a tragic suicide in 2008, he likely has made a commitment to removing any barriers to happiness for his son. But that is the real tragedy. Removing San Francisco’s archbishop would not change the teachings of the Catholic Church on homosexual behavior and same-sex marriage. In some ways it would only make things worse for the Cahill family, as they would have to acknowledge the role they have played in this most destructive campaign they have waged.

Cahill should know that this war is not over. More than 36,000 Catholics have signed a petition at Catholic Vote to support Archbishop Cordileone and to thank him for “showing us what true leadership looks like and for defending Catholic families, students, and an important principle of religious liberty in America.” The letter concluded with assurances to the archbishop that “Catholics across America are praying with you and for you. . . . Please know you are not alone.”

And to show their support for the archbishop’s efforts to ensure that teachers in Catholic schools remain faithful to Church teachings, a grassroots group of San Francisco Catholics have organized an “Archbishop Cordileone Support Day,” including a family picnic on May 16 at San Francisco’s Little Marina Green. Asked to wear blue to show support for the archbishop, participants are promised a puppet show, “a bouncy house for the little ones,” live entertainment provided by a Mariachi band, and kids’ games organized by Mother Teresa’s Missionaries of Charity.

[LurkingSince'98]

Yes... The magisterium lives absolutely rent-free in the heads of the protestants who post on FR.

It is fun to see them get their underware all in a bundle when dicussing our Catholic faith.

AMDG

[LurkingSince'98]

‘never happened’

I so love it when you use the protestant absolute tense ‘never happened’!

Thanks you gave me my first chuckle of the morning.

Ad Majoram Dei Gloriam

[Iscool]

‘never happened’

I so love it when you use the protestant absolute tense ‘never happened’!
Thanks you gave me my first chuckle of the morning.
Ad Majoram Dei Gloriam<.i>

So what is that, Farsi???

And I love how you deny it but can't supply a rebuttal...

[LurkingSince'98]

Is

sorry but only fools play your protty games.

I am a true and faithful believer in the Roman Catholic Church and have been since the moment I was born.

I accept everything in the Catechism of the Church as well as fully accept the guidance and direction of the Magesterium.

If I ever do feel at odds with any one single point of my Church I get down on my knees and reconcile my faith to the faith of my Church.

This is what I believe and fully accept:

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, and born of the Father before all ages.

God of God, light of light, true God of true God.

Begotten not made, consubstantial to the Father, by whom all things were made.

Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven.

And was incarnate of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary and was made man; was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, suffered and was buried; and the third day rose again according to the Scriptures.

And ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, and shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, of whose Kingdom there shall be no end.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son, who together with the Father and the Son is to be adored and glorified, who spoke by the Prophets.

And one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.

I confess one baptism for the remission of sins.

I look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come.

Amen.

So what do you think you are going to say Iscool “don’t believe that”?

That’s what makes FR prots to funny - they think they can even minutely change a faithful Catholic’s faith.

NOT. A. CHANCE.

For the Greater Glory of God

[LurkingSince'98]

Ad Majoram Dei Gloriam<.i>

So what is that, Farsi???

Sorry I missed that.

unfortunately either you:

a) never learned Latin in school like I did.

b) failed to lower your eyes to my tagline where it is translated, or

c) are just being disingenuous and wanted to throw up a red herring by connecting my post to some Islamo-fascist.

you choose.

again your post makes me chuckle.

Ad Majoram Dei Gloriam

[CynicalBear]

>>I am a true and faithful believer in the Roman Catholic Church<<

That pretty much says it all doesn't it. Like Paul told the jailor, "believe in the Roman Catholic Church and you will be saved"! Oh.................wait............

[Iscool]

sorry but only fools play your protty games.

Protty games??? You obviously falsely and privately interpret a verse of scripture and can't find a single application for it in the scriptures and when you are called out on it, it is a protty game???

It's a protty game when we continuously show where your religion has violated scriptures and made up its own???

That’s what makes FR prots to funny - they think they can even minutely change a faithful Catholic’s faith.

We're not going to change any of your minds but hopefully we can keep others from falling into the same trap as you...Perhaps when lurkers see how you guys pervert and ignore the scriptures, they will seek Jesus to show them the truth in the scriptures given us by God...

[LurkingSince'98]

Maybe your ‘catholic’ friends are some of the folks mentioned in this article who oppress the Catholic Church and her faithful bishop.

MEET THE OPPONENTS OF SAN FRANCISCO’S ARCHBISHOP
by Matthew Schmitz
4 . 17 . 15
San Francisco Archbishop Salvatore Cordileone’s effort to ensure that Catholic schools are Catholic has led one-hundred San Franciscans who describe themselves as “committed Catholics inspired by Vatican II,” to take out a full page ad in the San Francisco Chronicle asking Pope Francis to force Cordileone’s resignation and appoint in his place an archbishop committed to “our values and your teachings.”

It is worth asking to what extent those “values” and “teachings” align. Francis, who has spoken strongly in the past against gay marriage and transgender ideology, has also called for a church that is “poor and for the poor.” On both counts, one wonders whether Cordileone might not be a likelier representative of Francis’ vision than are the letter’s signatories, for a few of whom biographical details can be found below.

Charles Geschke is the co-chairman of Adobe Systems, which had 2014 revenue of $4.147 billion. He has given over $200,000 to the Democratic Congressional Campaign and $40,000 to the Democratic National Committee. Reuters reports his basic compensation at $4,129,090 with $5,302,000 in exercisable, $19,993,300 in unexercisable, and $10,993,600 in exercised options compensation.

Louis J. Giraudo is the former chairman of Pabst Brewing and a partner at Coblentz Patch Duffy and Bass LLP, where he “is focused on mergers and acquisitions of companies with revenues of $50 million to $2.5 billion.” He “has negotiated labor agreements for companies with as many as 11,000 employees, as well as acquisitions and sales of hotels and other real property.”

David Grubb is the former president of construction firm Swinerton Inc. After a 240-ton tower crane operated by a subcontractor hired by his firm fell and killed five people in 1989, he told a House subcommittee that “‘we don’t deal with safety’ records when it comes to hiring subcontractors.” The company hired by his firm had been cited for fifty-nine violations between 1985 and 1988 with proposed fines totaling $110,000.

Larry Nibbi is CEO of Nibbi Brothers Construction, a company with $199 million in 2014 revenue according to the Engineering News-Record. The company was cited for three serious OSHA violations in 2011 after an inadequately constructed concrete form collapsed, allowing the wet concrete to partly bury three workers. OSHA determined that “the employer overloaded their working platform center support beam that broke in two, causing a catastrophic failure of the platform and the false work above.” The project the injured men were working on was worth $40 million.

Clint Reilly worked on political campaigns for Nancy Pelosi, Dianne Feinstein, and Barbara Boxer before becoming “founder and owner of the Clinton Reilly Holdings, a diversified family of commercial real estate and hospitality businesses” and amassing an “estimated $100 million fortune.” In 2001, a writer for SF Weekly described a visit to Reilly’s home: “My leather-jacketed host, Clint Reilly, taps a code into the security system that unlocks the metal gate to his 120-acre estate in Napa County. In his black Mercedes sedan, we climb past hillside vineyards and through a pine forest, emerging on top of Mount Veeder, where we park in front of a chateau.”

Sam Singer, a PR man hired by opponents of Cordileone, did not sign, but has done much to promote, the letter. He was profiled by SF Weekly in 2014: “When your workspace is engulfed in flames; when your mistress threatens to reveal your illegitimate family; when your restaurant serves up E. coli burgers; when your employees inadvertently kill a young child; when a wild beast rampages through your place of business — you better call Sam Singer.”

According to the San Francisco Chronicle, costs for full-page ads “typically run in the tens of thousands of dollars.”

As Pope Francis has said, “poor and for the poor.”

Matthew Schmitz is deputy editor of First Things.

As I said before unless you are a caithful Catholic you have t a clue about opression.

AMDG

[delchiante]

It would just being some fulfillment of prophecy like Daniel 7:25..

And that is not good for anything that is associated with the 4th kingdom on the statue in Daniel.

And the whole world has something to do with the 4th kingdom today, whether they realize it or not..