Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

To: ealgeone
"Regarding the Tomb of the Unknown or your father's flag...... people don't pray, appeal, place confidence in, hope for their salvation, assign false attributes or titles and everything else the rcc has done regarding Mary...That's the difference where it crosses over to worship."

Thank you for that explanation. It is not, however, correct with reference to the way Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and others regard Mary.

Let's look at each word in your objection:

It is clear that one can distinguish between veneration and worship. Worship, above all, refers all things to God as Creator of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible, the Prime Mover and First Cause of all things, all of whose attributes are non-contingent and infinite. Veneration, in contrast, refers to honor of an infinitely lower sort: honor to fellow-creatures (as in "Honor thy father and thy mother" and "Give honor to whom honor is due.") As creatures, they are inherently secondary, contingent, dependent at every point on either the positive or the permissive Will of God.

If you keep the difference between veneration and adoration quite clear, it becomes more obvious how God-pleasing it is to honor His mother.

678 posted on 04/13/2015 10:54:04 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (I believe in One God, the Father Almighty. Creator of Heaven and Earth.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 672 | View Replies ]


To: Mrs. Don-o
Pray: not synonymous with "worship." Jesus, for instance, conversed with Moses and Elijah, saints of the Old Testament, but that does not mean He was worshiping them. Many persons in the OT and the NT conversed with angels, but that does not mean they were worshiping them.

Difference is Jesus did not pray to Moses or Elijah. He did not appeal to them. People in the OT and NT did have conversations with angels, but they did not initiate those as prayers to Mary are initiated.

Bottom line pray to someone is a form of worship. When catholics pray to Mary, and please don't say they don't, they are engaging in one aspect of worship.

• Appeal, place confidence in: not synonymous with "worship." My husband appealed to the cop not to give him a speeding ticket when he was hurrying to see me in the ICU. He placed confidence in the cop's common sense, and rightly so: the cop let him off with a warning.

That's a bit of a stretch. Catholics are doing more than hoping a police officer is using "common sense". When they appeal to Mary they are asking her, in some cases, for things that go against what Jesus would grant. I can get that reference for you later.

• Hope for their salvation: not synonymous with "worship." When applied to Mary or other saints or angels, it would mean having confidence in their intercession. If in fact people were regarding Mary, rather than Jesus, as the source of their salvation this would be a serious error. But that's not what the Catholic Church teaches us to do.

It has been shown many times that many catholic writers have made this very point....they are relying upon Mary for their salvation: they have said there is no salvation outside of Mary, they have pledged all their heart to her, rely totally upon her, etc.

•Assign false attributes or titles: three points. First, none of the titles or attributes used in accordance with the dogmas of the Church, are false. (I know you would dispute this, but your opinion is not the point here.)

You're right, my opinion doesn't matter. However, the facts are there. The rcc has assigned titles/attributes to Mary not found in Scripture nor found in the earliest writings/teachings of the Apostolic Age(The original apostles). These titles/attributes continue to grow indicating they were not part of the original teachings of the Apostles. At lot of the titles have come about through interpreting the scriptures from an analogy aspect. EX: If there's a king, there must be a queen. The text does not suggest that. That is human reasoning not based on proper hermeneutics. Mary is Queen of the Apostles.....really? This is suggested where in the texts? I can go on, but you get the idea.

Third, some of the over-the-top invocations of Mary, especially, are in the category of mystical/devotional hyperbole or courtly poetry, which I've been discussing HERE (and follow the links)

This is neither doctrine nor dogma, and some of it would need to be squinted at for quite some time, and then heavily footnoted, to limit its application to a context where Mary=lowly handmaid (subject) and Jesus=King of Kings (sovereign and unique in every sense.) A lot of it is simply undefined.

Then the catholic church needs to come out and define which of these writings are ok and which ones are not. They need to be clear.

Individually these may not take on the form of worship. Combined however, as catholicism has done with Mary, elevates it to a form of worship.

691 posted on 04/13/2015 12:02:54 PM PDT by ealgeone
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 678 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson