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To: ealgeone
"You haven't proven that what the Catholic Church calls "tradition" is exactly what the apostles taught."

If you're waiting for "verbatim", that ain't happenin' because no kind of verbatim proof exists. Nor has it been claimed.

What we'd be looking for, is evidence that something had its origins in Apostolic times, as indicated by the fact that the belief was widespread in the customs, prayers and practices of widely dispersed early Christian churches (Asia, Africa, Europe).

An example of this which ought to interest you, would be the belief that the authors of the four Gospels were Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. This is not in Scripture --- the earliest manuscripts for the Gospels are all anonymous --- thus the authorship of the Gospels is not part of the "Bible." But it was believed in the earliest churches in the Middle East and SW Asia, North Africa, Greece and Italy, etc. So we think this is not just some local preacher's opinion, but something which must have been transmitted to them during the Apostolic Age.

Likewise no one knows for sure who is the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews, but Tradition holds it to be inspired Scripture because it was regarded as suitable for use in the Liturgy in ancient churches.

The usual rules of historiography apply here. Nothing woo-woo oracular or mystical, we just look at manuscripts, hymns, old lists, monuments and inscriptions, and above all, the actual customs and practices of the churches, and make reasonable inferences, usually from converging lines of evidence.

If you yourself accept the headings in your Bible about Matthew-Mark-Luke-John as authors of the Gospels, and "someone in Apostolic times" being the divinely-inspired author of the Epistle tot he Hebrews, then voila, you accept the results of our acceptance of Sacred Tradition.

668 posted on 04/13/2015 7:47:05 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Stand firm and hold to the traditions you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
What we'd be looking for, is evidence that something had its origins in Apostolic times, as indicated by the fact that the belief was widespread in the customs, prayers and practices of widely dispersed early Christian churches (Asia, Africa, Europe).

What would be the definition/timer period of "Apostolic Times"?

674 posted on 04/13/2015 9:45:07 AM PDT by ealgeone
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To: Mrs. Don-o

I've seen that argument before, but it has serious flaws.

The "our acceptance" of what you refer to as "Sacred Tradition", as that could be conceptualized or understood to be includes more than a few considerations which cannot be found in, as you otherwise mentioned;

that would be old enough to make them undeniably "Apostolically" sourced, which in ending result leaves this same Sacred Tradition (which I assume you are referring to) not required by anyone really, to be taken as Gospel (good news & truth) in it's present-day entirety.

There are portions --- which are the New Testament texts themselves. What was that you just said about "no verbatim"?

Then say goodbye to prayers to departed saints, which seek the intercession of those.

Singular papacy for whomever it is who may gain office of bishop of Rome --- is even further away from "Apostolic times", fully including the first few centuries (at least), wherein there is also enough converging lines of evidence to fully dispute that so-called Apostolic succession included anything approaching concept of Peter's own most primary successors would by dint of geographical considerations be most chiefly (as in higher ranked over all others) to whomever it was at any one time who happened to be bishop of Rome. Scripture itself refutes the notion also -- which is most likely why the concept (singular "primacy", in effect equaling Supremacy for 'Rome') took so long to develop.

THAT sort of idea was entirely of later development -- with converging lines of evidence indicating that when that concept first began to be asserted (by those of Rome, alone) it was rebuked by many within the Church, although those of Rome were not regarded as having "no" perceived authority whatsoever. Quite the contrary (more particularly as centuries continued to pass) for that bishopric, being in the city having been once seat of Empire of Rome, and having enjoyed what came to be referred to among the wider church (only centuries after true apostolic age) as having double apostolicity for reason that church traditions placed both Paul & Peter there, leaving it be important for sake of unity to have that church's agreement, but not so important that early Roman church 'popes' were themselves beyond the correction of others, or could themselves unilaterally 'lay down the law'.

Otherwise, the Church at Antioch and at Jerusalem could be seen as "center" ---BUT--- when both of those churches were still flourishing (so to speak?) in the earliest centuries, there was no one particular church or bishopric regarded as center of all the Church.

This part ---> Tradition holds it to be inspired Scripture because it was regarded as suitable for use in the Liturgy in ancient churches comes across as rather convoluted, being that the primary, most fundamental reason that any of the writings which were "regarded as suitable for use in liturgy" in the first place was that the writings had been widely enough received & accepted as coming from Apostolic sources, although not all had to be written by the original 12 (and the first replacement?) to have been from the first generation of Church, ie., the Apostles themselves, and those most close to them from the most primitive beginnings...(not others whom never themselves witnessed Christ, or were not present among and under the direct tutelage of the undisputed, genuine Apostles in the first, most primitive decades).

That such writings as the book of Hebrews did eventually gain fullest acceptance a bit later than most all of the rest (I won't go into the details of other, late to be fully known of, and "accepted" texts) although bearing witness of the strength of early oral tradition in regards to such fundamental matters, does not equal that those who accept NT Scripture must then also unquestionably accept all which it can be reasonably enough shown --- arose and further developed only in centuries after those first few centuries.

I'm still waiting for clear evidences of "prayers TO departed saints" (rather than for, or about them) imploring them for their own intercession to be sourced from earlier than the 4th century.

Citing Paul requesting others still living upon earth pray for himself (as I have seen be part of RC apologetic) simply does not equal that earliest church traditions included PTDS.

So save the whales the breath?


694 posted on 04/13/2015 12:10:25 PM PDT by BlueDragon (the weather is always goldilocks perfect, on freeper island)
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