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To: metmom; verga
This looks like a variation on the etymological fallacy.  One cannot jump from the dictionary ranking to a statistical conclusion about a word's use in a given passage, i.e., "Because it can be seen as tertiary generally, it must be tertiary here" would be a non sequitur. 

Furthermore, one of the most widely respected modern lexicons, that goes beyond bare-bones etymology and investigates localized syntactic and idiomatic influence, suggests a reasonable basis for the preference for "born again." From Louw-Nida:
41.53 γεννάω ἄνωθεν (an idiom, literally ‘to be born again’); παλιγγενεσίαa, ας f: to experience a complete change in one’s way of life to what it should be, with the implication of return to a former state or relation—‘to be born again, to experience new birth, rebirth.’
γεννάω ἄνωθεν: ἐὰν μή τις γεννηθῇ ἄνωθεν ‘unless a person is born again’ Jn 3:3. It is also possible to understand ἄνωθεν in Jn 3:3 as meaning ‘from above’ or ‘from God’ (see 84.13), a literary parallel to the phrase ἐκ θεοῦ ἐγεννήθησαν in Jn 1:13. In Jn 3:3, however, Nicodemus understood ἄνωθεν as meaning ‘again’ (see 67.55) and γεννάω as ‘physical birth’ (see 23.52).
παλιγγενεσίαa: διὰ λουτροῦ παλιγγενεσίας καὶ ἀνακαινώσεως ‘new birth and new life by washing’ Tt 3:5. The metaphor of ‘new birth’ is so important in the NT that it should be retained if at all possible. In some languages ‘new birth’ can be expressed as ‘to cause to be born all over again’ or ‘to have a new life as though one were born a second time.’ See also 13.55.
However, it is true the expression can refer to some kind of "above-ness." But which one? Place, or Time.  From the Intermediate Greek-English Lexicon (IGEL):
ἄνωθεν, -θε, (ἄνω) Adv. of Place, from above, from on high, Hdt., Trag., etc.; ὕδατος ἄνωθεν γενομένου, i.e. rain, Thuc.: from the upper country, from inland, Id.
2. = ἄνω, above, on high, Trag.; οἱ ἄν. the living, opp. to οἱ κάτω, Aesch.:—c. gen., Hdt.

II. of Time, from the beginning, Plat., Dem.:—by descent, Theocr.; τὰ ἄν. first principles, Plat.
2. over again, anew, N.T.
This is something one has to respect when dealing with the Greek.  They have a very flexible way of reusing parts of speech in both temporal and spatial settings, and within those categories there can be a wide range between the concrete and the abstract.  In this case, as the IGEL entry demonstrates, "anothen" can be either spatial above-ness (simple "above"), or temporal above-ness, i.e., going back to Time Zero and starting over, from which we get the simplified "again."

In John 3, the conversational dynamic cannot be ignored in sorting this out.  Whatever Jesus meant by anothen (or its Hebrew or Aramaic spoken equivalent), Nicodemas didn't pick up on the spatial meaning "above" at all.  He is clearly thinking of a temporal reset, but it is degenerate from what is meant by "born again," because, as an idiom, and especially among evangelicals, it implies both the temporal and spatial aspects, i.e., being born again is both from above and a second birth event. Therefore it seems likely it was something of a double meaning, where Nicodemas got derailed by taking it as strictly temporal, and strictly concrete, and Jesus had to rebuke Him for his lack of insight into the Old Testament teaching on the spiritual aspects of the new birth, which Jesus unfolds as birth by water and by "pneuma" (spirit or wind), as these passages testify:
Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, which will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen. For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring: And they shall spring up as among the grass, as willows by the water courses.
(Isaiah 44:2-4)
And
Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live. So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
(Ezekiel 37:9-10)
Whether Jesus was thinking of these specific passages I cannot say, but clearly whatever Nicodemas missed, it was something Jesus considered obvious teaching of the OT, something no true teacher of Israel should have missed, concerning the new birth.

Bottom line, all this is rather difficult to render in the English. We don't have a perfect replica of the dual-use "above/again" construct (at least that I can think of). So we have to pick one or the other and let the potential dual use come out in teaching the passage.  As the English idiom "born again" carries both meanings quite well, it is probably a superior translation choice in this case.

I will have to leave it at that for now.  Other duties call.

Peace,

SR








572 posted on 04/12/2015 8:09:00 AM PDT by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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To: Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; CynicalBear; daniel1212; Gamecock; HossB86; Iscool; ...

Thank you for the excellent post... Have a blessed Lords day

Ping to 572 for my FR friends


575 posted on 04/12/2015 8:29:58 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: Springfield Reformer
Thank you for adding light instead of heat to the debate. My issue is and always has been that this "second birth" is solely from God with no human agent /element other than the individual recipient.

This makes it a "super"natural rebirth making "from above" the preferred translation.

591 posted on 04/12/2015 11:22:07 AM PDT by verga (I might as well be playing chess with pigeons,.)
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To: Springfield Reformer

Bookmarked; thank God for your input.


593 posted on 04/12/2015 11:41:02 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: Springfield Reformer

Thank you for the research. I would offer Jesus was leading Nicodemus to Ezekiel 36 in discussing the new birth:

22 “Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “I do not do this for your sake, O house of Israel, but for My holy name’s sake, which you have profaned among the nations wherever you went. 23 And I will sanctify My great name, which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst; and the nations shall know that I am the Lord,” says the Lord God, “when I am hallowed in you before their eyes. 24 For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land.

25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

28 Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God. 29 I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses. I will call for the grain and multiply it, and bring no famine upon you. 30 And I will multiply the fruit of your trees and the increase of your fields, so that you need never again bear the reproach of famine among the nations. 31 Then you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good; and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight, for your iniquities and your abominations. 32 Not for your sake do I do this,” says the Lord God, “let it be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel!”

33 ‘Thus says the Lord God: “On the day that I cleanse you from all your iniquities, I will also enable you to dwell in the cities, and the ruins shall be rebuilt. 34 The desolate land shall be tilled instead of lying desolate in the sight of all who pass by. 35 So they will say, ‘This land that was desolate has become like the garden of Eden; and the wasted, desolate, and ruined cities are now fortified and inhabited.’ 36 Then the nations which are left all around you shall know that I, the Lord, have rebuilt the ruined places and planted what was desolate. I, the Lord, have spoken it, and I will do it.”


595 posted on 04/12/2015 12:15:18 PM PDT by redleghunter (1 Peter 1:3-5)
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