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To: one Lord one faith one baptism
Already familiar with the Ignatius argument.  Transubstantiation is a very specific claim that goes beyond identifying the bread and wine with Jesus' body and blood.  Any Zwinglian or old school Baptist could say the same thing Ignatius did, and if doing battle with the Docetists, who rejected the physicality of Christ altogether, might well have done so.  For a clarification, see how Tertullian, still fighting Docetism, uses very similar language, but offers the clarification that the way in which the bread and the body relate is as a figure:
Then, having taken the bread and given it to His disciples, He made it His own body, by saying, "This is my body," that is, the figure of my body. A figure, however, there could not have been, unless there were first a veritable body (Against Marcion, Bk 4).

quoted from an article here: http://www.justforcatholics.org/a181.htm
Ignatius is saying the same thing.  It is a quite typical mode of expression under the platonic mode of relating type to archetype.  There is a relationship, and it can be expressed very directly, "A is B," and still have the sense of what we moderns would think of as a symbolic reference.

All of which is why we cannot build soul-binding doctrine from anything but divine revelation.  Ignatius is not inspired.  Tertullian is not inspired.  Neither you nor I are inspired.  If you want to know the truth, you have to go to the source.

Peace,

SR
34 posted on 03/31/2015 4:50:33 PM PDT by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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To: Springfield Reformer

St. Ignatius, St. Justin Martyr, and St. Irenaeus are then cited extensively for this literal view of the Eucharist as the body and blood of Christ. Stone continues concerning Tertullian’s view of the Eucharist and Sacraments —

“A very imperfect idea of the Eucharistic doctrine of Tertullian would be given if attention were confined to those passages in his writings in which he describes the Eucharist as the ‘figura’ of the body of Christ and the means by which our Lord ‘makes His body present.’ To understand it rightly, it must be viewed in the general setting of sacramental principle which Tertullian emphasizes. In his eyes the Incarnation has introduced new aspects of the relation of man to God. The human flesh which the Lord then took is an abiding reality. ‘That same Person who suffered,’ he declares, ‘will come from heaven; that same Person who was raised from the dead will appear to all. And they who pierced Him will see and recognize the very flesh against which they raged’ [De carn Christi, 24]. With this Christ, thus retaining His human body and blood, Christians are closely united. The baptised are clothed with Christ; in them Christ lives [De fug 10; De poen 10]. By the daily reception of the bread of life there is continuance in Christ and abiding union in His body [De orat 6]. Before the Incarnation the flesh was far off from God, ‘not yet worthy of the gift of salvation, not yet fitted for the duty of holiness’; but Christ’s work, accomplished in the flesh, has changed all that [De pud 6]. Since the Incarnation Sacraments have become necessary and effectual [De Bapt 11,13]; and that which in the ordinances of the Church touches the flesh benefits the soul [De carn res 8].

“It is in harmony with these general sacramental principles that Tertullian not only calls the Eucharist ‘the holy thing’ [De spectac 25], but also often and naturally refers to it as the body of Christ.” (Stone, vol 1, pg 36-37)

Stone then gives six clear examples of Tertullian’s literal view —

(1) It is a matter of anxious care that no drop of the wine or fragment of the bread should fall to the ground (De cor 3).

(2) It was the Lord’s body which the disciples received at the Last Supper (Adv Marc iv,40).

(3) It is the Lord’s body which the communicant receives in the Church or reserves for his Communion at home (De orat 19).

(4) It is the Lord’s body with the richness of which the Christian is fed in the Eucharist (De pud 9).

(5) It is Christ’s body and blood with which “the flesh is clothed, so that the soul also may be made fat by God” (De carn res 8).

(6) Even in unworthy Communions it is the body of the Lord which wicked hands approach, the body of the Lord which wicked men outrage and offend

for a more complete view of Tertullian and the Eucharist.
Zwingli and old school Baptists did not believe anything like this.


37 posted on 03/31/2015 5:00:11 PM PDT by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: Springfield Reformer

If you want to know the truth, you have to go to the source


This is My Body

Jesus Christ, 33ad


39 posted on 03/31/2015 5:05:03 PM PDT by one Lord one faith one baptism
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