Posted on 03/28/2015 7:24:04 PM PDT by NKP_Vet
Replace Romanists with “papists” and start feeling better about the situation, okay?
The fact you don’t see it is why you don’t get it.
The article starts out to go out of its way to include a “Protestants are wrong” theme, when it isn’t necessary to simply explain the Roman viewpoint. Instead you have to state your teaching as an advesarial vehicle to not only explain what the Roman church believes, but at the same time also make it about “Protestants are wrong”. From the very beginning.
This article could have been written giving a clear explanation of the Roman viewpoint of the Eucharist without ever mentioning Protestants (ie other denominations) at all. But your guys can never just simply explain your teachings and beliefs, you always have to write them as to stick it to “protestants” and others. Always the obligatory jabs.
The whole “protestants wiggle and fidget” imagery is written deliberately and on purpose. There is a desired effect.
You guys are incapable of just writing apologetic aritcles about what you believe without backhanding everyone else.
Don’t hurt your arm patting yourself on the back about Catholics keeping the Bible intact. But I’ll make one short point. It’s Gods Book NOT the Catholics. He protected it and not mankind alone.
You guys use the word “Protestants” in the exact same way. Maybe if you’d take the beam out of your own eye you’d see the very point I am making.
No. He has conquered death. What happened to his body after the Ascension?
He never held up or pointed to a door and said this is my body.
ha you denigrate the core of Catholic Dogma and with it all Catholics but without any more authority or substance than "because I said so" Who are you and what authority do you base your scurrilous claims that anyone should give your childish conclusions any weight.
In this case “spirit” refers to an apparition. He certainly has a physical presence. He can be seen and felt. His words and appearance are to confirm He was/is the SAME Jesus they knew and loved. Are we not to be changed in the same way? read 1Jn. 3:1,2.
Wow and on post 42 the light bulb comes on. Thank you for clueing me into that. I see how it could sting, written that way. My mom is a convert and it’s a really long story but she explained that it is very difficult to understand at first but once you do you become the way I am, just reading past things like that.
I am sorry, please forgive me.
As long as I stay with what the Bible teaches, I have all the authority I need. One plus God is always a majority.
Since flesh and blood requires food, I guess there'll be a lot of restaurants in heaven...I hope they have Chinese...
I wonder if the toilets will be Uni-Sex or separate ones for men and women...
Thanks for the post. I appreciate your response.
I honestly have zero problems with anyone explaining and discussing their beliefs, I like to see apologists explaining things and the verses and reasonings. It tells me the thought process and where they are coming from.
What gets me is when these so called apologist pieces - again from any denomination - are merely a vehicle to take jabs and slam down others. I think if the point to apologetics is to convince others not there with you yet, and also educate your own, it ought to be done without bringing others down at the same time. Seems self-defeating to me, anyway. It makes you kind of question the entire motivation behind the writing in the first place.
Anyway, have a good rest of the night.
1) From the nature of the words used One specially notes the realistic expressions “true” and “real” referring to the “food” and “drink” which is our Savior’s body and blood.
Wrong. In the very same book leading up to Jn. 6 the Lord said that eternal life was obtained by "drink," and that doing His Father's will was His "meat." (Jn. 4:24) For indeed, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. (Matthew 4:4)
And which Jn. 6:57 corresponds to:
As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. (John 6:57)
And which was said to explain how we are to live by consuming Christ, which John and the rest of Scripture nowhere says is by literally physically eating anything, but by receiving and believing His word in our innermost being, which word is the only thing that is said to "nourish" the believer spiritually, (1Tim. 4:6) and which builds him up. (Acts 20:32)
In addition, David plainly and distinctly said drinking water was the blood of men, and thus would not drink it, but poured it out on the ground as an offering to the Lord, as it is forbidden to drink blood.
And the three mighty men brake through the host of the Philistines, and drew water out of the well of Bethlehem, that was by the gate, and took it, and brought it to David: nevertheless he would not drink thereof, but poured it out unto the Lord . And he said, Be it far from me, O Lord, that I should do this: is not this the blood of the men that went in jeopardy of their lives? therefore he would not drink it. (2 Samuel 23:16-17)
Thus, consistent with the Catholic "plain language" hermeneutic, this must by taken literally, and explained by some metaphysical philosophy. But which abundant use of figurative language the apostles would have been familiar with. .
Thus the "realistic expressions" polemic does not warrant its conclusions
2) From the biblical usage of the figure “to eat one’s flesh” In the language of the Bible, to eat another’s flesh or to drink his blood in the metaphorical sense is to persecute him, to bring him to ruin and to destroy him.
Wrong, as the apologist has just displayed his ignorance of Scripture in not knowing of David calling drinking water the blood of his noble men, who essentially laid down their lives for David.
In addition, it is irrelevant whether the use of “to eat one’s flesh” is in the negative sense, as the point is that such language is used metaphorically. Paul said the same thing to believers as the Philistines said to each other in "quit you like men, be strong," (1Co. 16:13; cf. 1Sam. 4:9) but the former is not disallowed by the latter.
Moreover, Christ was brought to a type of ruin, and Moses said that the Canaanites were “bread for Israel: “Only rebel not ye against the LORD, neither fear ye the people of the land; for they are bread for us” (Num. 14:9)
And other examples of such metaphorical language include:
The Promised Land was “a land that eateth up the inhabitants thereof.” (Num. 13:32)
David said that his enemies came to “eat up my flesh.” (Ps. 27:2)
And complained that workers of iniquity ”eat up my people as they eat bread , and call not upon the Lord.” (Psalms 14:4)
And the Lord also said, “I will consume man and beast; I will consume the fowls of the heaven, and the fishes of the sea, and the stumblingblocks with the wicked; and I will cut off man from off the land, saith the Lord.” (Zephaniah 1:3)
While even arrows can drink: “I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh ; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy.' (Deuteronomy 32:42)
But David says the word of God (the Law) was “sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. (Psalms 19:10)
Another psalmist also declared the word as “sweet:” “How sweet are thy words unto my taste! yea, sweeter than honey to my mouth!” (Psalms 119:103)
Jeremiah likewise proclaimed, “Your words were found. and I ate them. and your word was to me the joy and rejoicing of my heart” (Jer. 15:16)
Ezekiel was told to eat the words, “open thy mouth, and eat that I give thee...” “eat that thou findest; eat this scroll, and go, speak to the house of Israel.” (Ezek. 2:8; 3:1)
John is also commanded, “Take the scroll ... Take it and eat it.” (Rev. 10:8-9 )
And which use of figurative language for Christ and spiritual things abounds in John, using the physical to refer to the spiritual:
• In John 1:29, Jesus is called “the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world” — but he does not have hoofs and literal physical wool.
• In John 2:19 Jesus is the temple of God: “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up” — but He is not made of literal stone.
• In John 3:14,15, Jesus is the likened to the serpent in the wilderness (Num. 21) who must “be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal” (vs. 14, 15) — but He is not made of literal bronze.
• In John 4:14, Jesus provides living water, that “whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life,” — but which was not literally consumed by mouth.
• In John 7:37 Jesus is the One who promises “He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water” — but believers were not water fountains, but He spoke ”of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive.” (John 7:38)
• In Jn. 9:5 Jesus is “the Light of the world” — but who is not blocked by an umbrella.
• In John 10, Jesus is “the door of the sheep,” and “the good shepherd [who] giveth his life for the sheep”, “that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly” vs. 7, 10, 11) — but who again, is not literally an animal with cloven hoofs.
• In John 15, Jesus is the true vine — but who does not physically grow from the ground nor whose fruit is literally physically consumed.
Therefore the metaphorical use of language for eating and drinking is well established, and which again, the apostles would have been familiar with, and would have understood the Lord's words by, versus as a radical new requirement that contradicted Scripture, and required a external Aristotelian type of metaphysical explanation to justify.
3) From the reactions of the listeners The listeners understand Jesus to be speaking in literal truth – How can this man give us his flesh to eat? (John 6:53) – and Jesus does not correct them, as he had done previously in the case of misunderstandings (cf. John 3,3; 4:32; Matthew 16:6).
Wrong again, as in Jn. 2:19,20, the Lord spoke in a way that seems to refer to destroying the physical temple in which He had just drove out the money changers, and left the Jews to that misapprehension of His words, so that this was a charge during His trial and crucifixion by the carnally minded. (Mk. 14:58; 15:29) But the meaning was revealed to His disciples after the resurrection.
Likewise, in Jn. 3:3, the Lord spoke in such an apparently physical way that Nicodemus exclaimed, "How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?" (John 3:4)
And in which, as is characteristic of John, and as seen in Jn. 6:63, the Lord goes on to distinguish btwn the flesh and the Spirit, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit," (John 3:6) leaving Nicodemus to figure it out, requiring seeking, rather than making it clear. Which requires reading more than that chapter, as with Jn. 6, revealing being born spiritually in regeneration. (Acts 10:43-47; 15:7-9; Eph. 1:13; 2:5)
Likewise in Jn. 4, beside a well of physical water, the Lord spoke to a women seeking such water of a water which would never leave the drinker to thirst again, which again was understood as being physical. But which was subtly inferred to be spiritual to the inquirer who stayed the course, but which is only made clear by reading more of Scriptural revelation.
And thus we see the same manner of revelation in Jn. 6, in which the Lord spoke to souls seeking physical sustenance of a food which would never leave the eater to hunger again. Which again was understood as being physical, but which was subtly inferred to be spiritual to the inquirers who stayed the course. But which is only made clear by reading more of Scriptural revelation.
In so doing the Lord makes living by this "bread" of flesh and blood as analogous to how He lived by the Father, "As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me." (John 6:57)
And the manner by which the Lord lived by the Father was as per Mt. 4:4: "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."
And therefore, once again using metaphor, the Lord stated to disciples who thought He was referring to physical bread, "My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work." (John 4:34)
And likewise the Lord revealed that He would not even be with them physically in the future, but that His words are Spirit and life:
“What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.” (John 6:62-63)
But as with those who imagined the Lord was referring to the physical Temple, the Lord left the protoCatholics to go their own way, who seemed to have yet imagined that the Lord was sanctioning a form of cannibalism, or otherwise had no heart for further seeking of the Lord who has "the words of eternal life" as saith Peter, not the flesh, eating of which profits nothing spiritually.
From the interpretation of the Fathers and the Magisterium Finally, we can recognize that this text is not to be understood as a metaphor from the interpretation of the Fathers, who ordinarily take the last section of the Bread of Life Discourse as referring to the Eucharist
Wrong on more than one count, as first, Augustine is not even teaching what the RC quotes him here as doing, from what i could find, but in context in his ill-defined rambling discourse (which is what it would be seen as if posted here by one of us) he says, "it is said "the flesh profiteth nothing" in the same manner as it is said that "knowledge puffeth up... Therefore add thou to knowledge charity, and knowledge shall be profitable...so here also, "the flesh profiteth nothing" only when alone. Let the Spirit be added to the flesh, as charity is added to knowledge, and and it profiteth very much." "If the apostles' flesh profited us, could it be that the Lord's flesh should have profited us nothing?.... Whence should writing come to us? All these are operations of the flesh, but only when the Spirit moves it, as if it were its organ. "We are united by faith, quickened by understanding...." This is what is meant by the ministration of Christ's body and blood.
Nor is Cyril manifestly teaching the RC "Real Presence" in the other quote, at least not there. Secondly, these uninspired men are not Scripture, nor is the often claimed “unanimous consent” of the fathers even a literal reality, while we have freely available only a small portion of all the 20 or so are estimated to have written. And paradoxically it seems that the collections we have available were compiled by Protestants. Instead of these men being as Scripture, they often passed on erroneous traditions of men that are not in Scripture and even contrary to it.
Finally, nor does Rome take their word as gospel, but judges them more than they judge them. For Rome is her own autocratic authority, while her own basis for that, that of the premise of perpetual ensured magisterial infallibility, is unScriptural, and unseen and unnecessary in the life of the church, as is her separate class of believers distinctively titled "priests," offering up "real" human flesh and blood as a sacrifice for sin, and literally consuming this to obtain spiritual life, around which act all else revolves, and looking to Peter as the first of a line of exalted infallible popes reigning over the church from Rome, and a separate class of believers distinctively titled "saints," and praying to created being in Heaven, and being formally justified by ones own sanctification/holiness, and thus enduring postmortem purifying torments in order to become good enough to enter Heaven, and saying rote prayers to obtain early release from it, and requiring clerical celibacy as the norm. Etc.
Well then you got all the bases covered for yourself. Good luck with that. Is it ok if I don’t worship at the church of bipolarbob? You wouldn’t do anything rash would ya?
That is not what is said in that passage. Not sure how you came to that understanding. Maybe you could explain.
For one thing, the very literalistic interpretation that is insisted upon effectively damns all who reject this novel means of obtaining spiritual life.
For Jn. 6:53 is an absolute “verily verily” imperative, that one must consume the body and blood of Christ in order to obtain spiritual life.
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:53-54)
And which, if literal, excludes all those who reject the literalistic interpretation as unScriptural from obtaining spiritual and eternal life Also if literal, then we must see the Lord's Supper being preached in Acts and other places in the life of the church as the means of regeneration, that of obtaining spiritual life.
And which literal understanding is one which the apostles and NT church manifestly did not get, nor the rest of Scripture. For nowhere did the apostles preach the Lord's Supper as the, or a means to obtain spiritual life, as instead they preached that this is obtained by believing the gospel of grace.
Peter preached “To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins” (Acts 10:43) resulting in the Gentiles believing and being born again.
Referring to this, Peter stated, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. (Acts 15:7-9)
And after which souls live by Christ by obeying His words. For His words are spirit, and are life. (Jn. 6:63)
And nowhere else in Scripture was literally eating anything physically the means of obtaining spiritual and eternal life. Therefore in addition to a novel miracle explained by a novel theory, we have a novel yet essential means of obtaining spiritual life, and which to be consistent) excludes all those who cannot believe this unScriptural teaching.
However, rather than souls in Jn 6 rightly understanding the Lord's words as literal but rejecting them, instead they represent another example of carnally minded souls who are presented in John (especially) who do not seek the meaning of the Lord's enigmatic words. For we see many examples of the Lord speaking in an apparently physical way in order to reveal the spiritual meaning to those who awaited the meaning, which, as elsewhere, the Lord revealed to true seekers. Meanwhile, the rest of Scripture and John in particular only teach that spiritual life is obtained by believing the gospel of grace, and then one lives that out by obeying the word of God, as Christ lived by the Father, (Jn. 6:57), doing His will being His "meat." (Jn. 4:24)
Only the metaphorical view is consistent with the rest of Scripture. eternal life More .
What is your basis for assurance of Truth? Is it on the basis of the weight of Scriptural substantiation or the premise of the ensured magisterial veracity of Rome?
It seems that the RC argument is that an assuredly (if conditionally) infallible magisterium is essential for determination and assurance of Truth (including writings and men being of God) and to fulfill promises of Divine presence, providence of Truth, and preservation of faith, and authority. (Jn. 14:16,26; 15:26; 16:13; Mt. 16:18; Lk. 10:16)
And that being the historical instruments and stewards of Divine revelation (oral and written) means that such is that assuredly infallible magisterium. Thus any who knowingly dissent from the latter must be in rebellion to God. Does this fairly represent what you hold to or in what way does it differ?
Indeed i am by God's grace. I told you it was coming. See 57 .
Of course, its God’ Word. We have no disagreement there and God entrusted the Church to insure the authenticity of both the written word as well as His unwritten word (John 21:25) through sacred tradition and ritual, and most of all to insure ONE teaching and ONE truth for all time.
In the year 110 A.D., not even fifteen years after the book of Revelation was written, while on his way to execution St. Ignatius of Antioch wrote: “Where the bishop is present, there let the congregation gather, just as where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic church”. The Church believes that when the bishops speak as teachers, Christ speaks; for he said to them: “He who hears you, hears me; and he who rejects you, rejects me” (Lk 10, 16).
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