Posted on 03/24/2015 1:30:58 PM PDT by RnMomof7
It has been argued that “Mary is the creature closest to God. Moreover, while Christ is the mediator of all grace between God and creation, Mary is the mediator of all grace between Christ and humanity. Consequently, Mary is a powerful intercessor for all who turn to her” (see Zoltan, 1994, emp. added). The Bible clearly teaches that Mary is not Deity and should not be worshipped as such (see Pinedo, 2009). If she is not Deity, is she the closest human being to Deity? Does she play an active role in heaven, interceding for individual Christians? Does she make intercession for us in prayer or have an effect on our salvation?
When referring to Deity, the Bible mentions only the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19; cf. Matthew 3:16-17; John 10:30; 17:21; Acts 5:3-4). Mary is never mentioned in that context. Further, the heaven where God and His angels reside (Deuteronomy 10:14; 26:15; 1 Kings 8:27,30) is not yet inhabited by human beings. Jesus said: “No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man” (John 3:13, emp. added). These words represent the truth about all the people who have left this world (including Mary). No one is in heaven because heaven is reserved for all faithful servants of God since time began (cf. John 14:1-3). Not until after the Second Coming of Christ and the final Judgment will it become home for the faithful, both living and dead (Matthew 25:31-46;
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18).
The idea that Mary occupies a special place in heaven, close to the Son, is a tradition. It shows a lack of understanding concerning biblical teachings on the afterlife. In Luke 16:19-31, Jesus explained that the dead (saved and lost) go to a place called “hades” (16:23, Hebrew sheol)—a spiritual waiting place that separates the consolation of the righteous (referred to as “paradise,” cf. Luke 23:43) from the torment of the wicked. In hades, the righteous begin to taste part of the joy that awaits them in eternity, while the wicked begin to taste part of the suffering that awaits them. Hades is not the dwelling place of God; God dwells in heaven. Mary, along with Abraham and other faithful servants from the past, is waiting in hades until its dead are delivered up, when the Lord returns to judge each man and woman according to his or her works (Revelation 20:13). In this spiritual realm that precedes heaven, there is nothing that those who are there can do for those who are here (Luke 16:27-31).
Catholics have given the title of “Intercessor for the Saints” to Mary, although nowhere in the Bible is it applied to her. “Intercession” means “seeking the presence and hearing of God on behalf of others” (Vine, 1966, 2:267). There are only two areas in which Christians need intercession: salvation and prayers. If Mary is now, or ever has been, involved as “Intercessor for the Saints,” there should be ample evidence in Scripture.
Concerning salvation, the apostle Peter clearly stated that “there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12, NASB). Of course, he was referring to Jesus Christ. Paul wrote: “[T]here is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus” (1 Timothy 2:5). The Hebrews writer added: “Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He [Jesus] always lives to make intercession for them” (7:25). Jesus is the one and only Mediator (Intercessor) between God and Man, and He lives to continually intercede for those who come to God.
But what about prayer? Does Mary intercede in the prayers of Christians? No, she does not. This intercession also belongs to Jesus. When teaching His disciples to pray to the Father (Matthew 6:9), Jesus did not teach them to pray to (or through) Mary. And yet, Catholicism created a prayer—the “Hail Mary”—to include the words “Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of death.” In John 14:13-14, Jesus declared: “And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything in My name, I will do it” (cf. John 16:24). Jesus is the only One Who can mediate or intercede in our prayers, since “[a]ll things that the Father has are [His]” (John 16:15). If all things that the Father has are the Son’s, then what is left for Mary?
The prerogative of intercession supposedly given to Mary also is argued from the fact that she “interceded” before Jesus on behalf of a family at a wedding in Cana because the wine was running out during the celebration (John 2:2-3). This simple, solitary, tiny thread of argumentation, lost in a loom of confusion, has been misused extensively by the supporters of Marianism. By going to Jesus with a request for help, Mary was not intervening on behalf of anyone’s spiritual needs; she only reported the situation to Jesus. Moreover, consider Jesus’ response: “Woman, what does your concern have to do with Me?” (John 2:4). With these words, He emphasized that Mary’s concerns did not dictate His actions. Whatever He did in Cana that day would be according to God’s will, not because of human or motherly influences or desires.
If the situation recorded in John chapter two establishes Mary as the “Intercessor of the Saints,” what should we conclude from Matthew 8:5-13 and other passages that tell of similar circumstances? In Matthew chapter eight, a centurion “interceded” before Jesus for his servant who was in bed, paralyzed, and greatly tormented. Seeing the centurion’s faith, Jesus performed a miracle and cured the sick servant. Should we consider this centurion as the “Intercessor for the Paralytics, the Sick, and the Tormented”? Should any paralytic, or anyone suffering from physical or mental illness, pray to this man of great faith, asking him to intercede with God on their behalf? [The Bible further condemns the act of invoking the dead (cf. Deuteronomy 18:10-13; 1 Chronicles 10:13-14; Isaiah 8:19).] Neither this centurion, nor Abraham, nor Mary, nor anyone else—living or dead—can intercede before the throne of God in favor of the faithful Christian, except Jesus Christ Himself.
In Luke 1:47, Mary raised her voice and declared: “My spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior” (emp. added). If she had a Savior, then she needed salvation. And, if she needed salvation, then she also needed the only Intercessor of salvation—Jesus Christ (Hebrews 7:25). Therefore, Mary’s condition was no different from every human being before or after her. She sinned (Romans 3:23), and she needed the only Intercessor who could make peace between her and God (2 Corinthians 5:18-19; Colossians 1:20). Just as Jesus “interceded” on behalf of Mary before He died to make sure her physical needs were met (John 19:26-27), He interceded on her behalf to make sure her spiritual needs were met. Mary cannot intercede for any Christian since she, herself, needed intercession.
Finally, although Christians are commanded to pray for one another (1 Thessalonians 5:25; Hebrews 13:18; James 5:16), Jesus is our only Mediator in prayer. Through Him our prayers are answered.
Pinedo, Moisés (2009), “Is Mary the Mother of God?” [On-line], URL: http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/240077.
Vine, W.E. (1966), An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words (Old Tappan, NJ: Fleming H. Revell).
Zoltan, Abraham (1994), “A Detailed Guide to Our Lady’s Rosary,” [On-line], URL: http://www.blessedtrinityorlando.org/rosary.html.
Not me. Differences in doctrine are just that, differences. You worship your way and Ill worship mine.
Because on FR, like New Hampshire, it’s live free or die....as long as you live the way they want.
It is humorously hypocritical to everything the Constitution stands for.
BTW, Cardinal4 is my oldest son.Nice to have a father/son posting on the same thread. And I agree very much with your son, in that I do not like the Catholic bashing on Free Republic either. I've noticed on some of these anti threads, that they've been dying out more quickly, and I hope and pray that's because the arguing is getting old and people are finding better things to do.
I hope it goes away too.
Just like every other believer.
I don't think Paul was asking his readers to pray to someone who was dead, asking the dead person to pray to God for Paul...
I can ask my wife to pray for me. I cannot ask her mother, who is dead, to pray for me.
It's Tuesday on FR....that is expose the FALSE teachings of Rome day.
That is true of every person ever born, with the exception of Enoch and Elijah. (Do I really need to explain the difference with Jesus being God?) And at the Resurrection, we will all have our bodies. Some will receive their reward, and some will receive their judgment. But none of that provides any support for the idea that Mary is in Heaven interceding for us.
I don’t see the post as Catholic bashing. Obviously, there are doctrinal differences between denominations and I do not see that changing anytime soon so should we just cease to have any conversations along that line?
I think these posts are good for something — you never know who is reading them and the information maybe beneficial to the point of helping one to find some truth to guide them along the way.
Explain the miracle at Cana... why was Mary there? and at the foot of the cross at the crucifixion?
When all of the diciples abandoned him... denied him... Mary was always there, always faithful.
As Catholics we aspire to be like Mary... because she was always doing the will of God and we can only hope to do the same.
I really don’t care. I don’t care what Rome says. I don’t care what you think.
I just think it is particularly immature for all of the Southern Baptists to sit around here and tell everyone they aren’t saved because they might believe exactly what they “should.”
If there is balance in the world, you all will spend a little time getting a flame across your behinds for being so silly.
As Christians we aspire to be more Christ like. Paul wrote extensively on this. He didn't mention being more Mary like.
If the “helping” was done in a mature manner I would grant you your point.
But the way the born agains are all high and mighty, I equate them with Shiites who think they KNOW the way for everyone else.
No, they pull out the long knifes and spout scripture.
So, there you have it. You are not a catholic.
Wow... that is heartbreaking.
YEAH thats the point I was making. Mary isn’t any different from any other believer that has passed to the Great Beyond.
The Bible called her most blessed among women, but beyong that what does the Bible say? How could she have any special brownie pts with God the Father — IF other saints who have died can intercede for the living I suppose she can too but with no more clout than any other (holy) Joe, if you get my drift. ; )
Apparently you do care as you commented on this thread.
I just think it is particularly immature for all of the Southern Baptists to sit around here and tell everyone they aren’t saved because they might believe exactly what they “should.”
You presume people are Southern Baptist. In reality you have ZERO idea.
If there is balance in the world, you all will spend a little time getting a flame across your behinds for being so silly.
Boy...that's a great witness....hoping someone feels the flame.
You are correct....I am a follower of Jesus Christ...that would make me a Christian.
There is a difference.
Mary can’t intercede for Christians.
Christians are aware that the only Mediator between God and man is Christ Jesus. Very clear in the Bible.
Any sect that believes that Mary, or any other dead person, can intercede is a cult.
And what’s this “Catholic bashing” some FReepers are whining about? If people don’t want to be challenged in healthy religious debate on this site, they should steer clear of religious postings. (Isn’t there a specific forum here for religion? I’m not sure.) A Christian won’t convert to Catholicism just because an R.C. zealot throws out a bizarre post now and again. It’s ridiculous.
Jeremiah 23:29 Is not my word like fire," declares the LORD,
Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
Ephesians 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
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