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Rejecting Mariology
Two-Edged Sword ^
| February 05, 2007
| Lee
Posted on 03/23/2015 2:14:57 PM PDT by RnMomof7
It is often claimed the Mary was heralded by the Patristics as a woman full of grace, perhaps sinless, and deserving our veneration above other departed saints as the Mother of the Church. This is not the case. While I do freely admit that the word Patristic can be used to cover a variety of ages, I prefer to use it to the pre-nicaean leaders of the church. Let us start with them, and we can move on from there.
In the Apostolic Fathers, as the first century leaders are often called, one sees little to no mention of Mary at all. Clement of Rome leaves her out of his epistle completely. This is a glaring omission for Mary full of grace since Clements entire letter is about submission, faith, and peace. Clement uses as examples of Christian living Paul, Peter, Moses, Abraham, David, and several martyrs in addition to Jesus Christ. Beyond that he even uses a few women as examples. Rahab gets the most ink as a wonderful example of faith, two women killed by Nero are mentioned, Esther get a paragraph, as does Judith from the Apocrypha. But no Mary. First century writers seem to view Mary as a good believer, but nothing more, much like Protestants today.
Second century writers turn up the first exaltation references to Mary, but even these are over stated. Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, and Tertullian all try to draw Mary as the anti-type of Eve as Jesus was of Adam. This leads to some grandiose statements about Mary, but the ancient mind often thought more typologically and allegorically then we do today. These men did not have any allusions about Mary being above sin (original or actual). In fact Irenaeus condemns Mary as a sinner for her role in the Wedding of Cana arguing that Jesus rebukes her for her presumptuous pride. Tertullian along with other second century leaders like Origen and later writers like Basil the Great and Chrysostom (4th century) all ascribe to Mary the sins of maternal vanity, anxiety, and doubt and state that the sword that pierces Marys soul in Luke 2:35 are these sins. Hardly a high view of Mary despite their typological attempts.
The rise of Mary really follows the rise of Monasticism and the encroachment of Neo-platonism into Christianity. The third and fourth centuries see apocryphal texts like the Gospel of the birth of Mary, which were all condemned by the church as a whole, but eventually the teachings of these books would be folded into the Mariology of the Roman church. The asceticism of the monastic orders arising from their neo-platonic view of the flesh exalted Mary as the ultimate example and claimed for her perpetual virginity. This helped give their life-style a bigger backing as well as giving them a patron saint.
The controversies of the 5th century about Christ led to Mary being the Mother of God as a test of orthodoxy. Mother of God was not meant to convey anything at all about Mary, but rather something about the natures of Jesus. However, it would come to be twisted to elevate Mary into something higher than merely human. The first person to actually advocate Mary did not have any actual or original sin was Pelegius, the free-will opponent of Augustine. During this time also one must remember that Rome was destroyed by the uneducated and pagan barbarians. As the centers of learning were destroyed the educated clergy could no longer restrain phrases like Mother of God and Mariology became Marialotry took on a life of its own as the masses carried Mary to extremes she was never meant to reach. By the time of Gregory the Great, Bishop of Rome, Mary was installed in her current position for the Roman church. Gregory freely instructed his missionaries to the barbarians not to destroy pagan temples, but rename them and the statues in them. Many pagan temples were to women, and Mary worship was well on its way.
Thus, I do not think Protestantism needs a Mariology at all. Mary is a wonderful example of saintly piety and faith as are many people in the Bible. She should not be avoided for she is the mother of our Lord. But we must remember, as I believe the Reformed tradition does, she is simply one of his disciples no better than any other believer in Christ. This is, after all, exactly what our Lord teaches in Matthew 12:47-50.
Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
TOPICS: Catholic; Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian
KEYWORDS: christ; mary; worship
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To: paladinan
One of the more baffling prejudices I've found in some Evangelical Protestants (especially those of the anti-Catholic-Church type) is the idea that God somehow does not WANT anyone but Himself involved in the business of handling the needs of the faithful. That's a classic example of applying nature to God. God is Spirit, His ways are not our ways. Mormons and wiccans do that all the time. It's natural for man to have a wife therefore God must have a wife. God didn't show Himself with any form because people would build an idol that looked like that and worship the idol. Man is finite and needs help with things therefore God must also. It's pure blasphemy.
221
posted on
03/24/2015 12:34:21 PM PDT
by
DungeonMaster
(No one can come to me unless the Father who sent Me draws him.)
To: paladinan
Talk about projection....You guys are the champions...
Mat 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
Knew her not = did not have sex
til = until (after Jesus was born)
And the the scriptures list Jesus' mother's other children...
The word "siblings" is nowhere in the text.
Do you know what siblings means??? Of course it is in the text...
"Brethren" (Gk: "adelphos") was a rendering of the Aramaic word for "kin"--which could mean anything from "blood-sibling" (cf. Matthew 4:21, etc.) to "fellow Israelite" (cf. Phillipians 4:8, etc.)
Adelphos never means kin in the scriptures...And neither does 'alelphe'...There is a word used for kin in the scriptures and it is not adelphos...
Adelphos means brothers..
Adelphe means sisters...
And Jesus had them both...
222
posted on
03/24/2015 12:48:02 PM PDT
by
Iscool
To: ealgeone
And they still deny they worship Mary.
Staggering denial......
223
posted on
03/24/2015 12:50:00 PM PDT
by
metmom
(...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
To: Iscool
"The only thing that seems to be implied is, for example, when you pray to one of your saints to find your car keys is that the presumed connection between the saint and Jesus automatically gives that saint Godly attributes." It's good you brought up the question of "implicit" meaning, and connections which are "presumed," because to the Catholic, the implicit meaning is "intercession" and the presumed connection is "prayer within the Communion of Saints," the Body of Christ of which Christ is always Head, whether or not that is stated.
We must, in fact, depend upon Paul's teaching about the Body of Christ as the one meaning-controlling context which defines the whole process of intercessory prayer. Once you have that firmly in mind, the rest follows automatically.
Notice how Paul says,
(1 Corinthians 12:21)
"The eye cannot say to the hand, 'I dont need you!' And the head cannot say to the feet, 'I dont need you!'"
We all need each other because we have all been placed where we are --- in ongoing, continuous, vital connection with each other --- by the Lord.
This is the governing reality of it, this Mystical Body of Christ, this blessed Communion of Saints.
There is a constant sharing of spiritual goods; as cells, tissues, organs, systems, limbs and senses we are all joined in the Body of Christ; at no point can we say "I have no connection with you; we don't communicate; I don't need you."
And a person doesn't lose the ability to intercede, or cease to be a member of the Communion of Saints once they enter heaven!
224
posted on
03/24/2015 12:50:39 PM PDT
by
Mrs. Don-o
(Point of One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic information)
To: paladinan
You need to make a choice: since Mary is the mother of Jesus, and Jesus is truly God, then either Mary is the mother of God, or else either Jesus was not fully human (which is the heresy of Apollinarianism), or He was not fully divine (which is the heresy of Arianism).The only choice to make is whether to believe God, or you...I'll have to ponder that one for a while... /sarc...
225
posted on
03/24/2015 12:50:43 PM PDT
by
Iscool
To: CynicalBear
Those Catholic apologists are certainly ‘long’ on speech and very short on substance...
226
posted on
03/24/2015 12:52:48 PM PDT
by
Iscool
To: Mrs. Don-o
And a person doesn't lose the ability to intercede, or cease to be a member of the Communion of Saints once they enter heaven! Who says?
227
posted on
03/24/2015 12:54:46 PM PDT
by
DungeonMaster
(No one can come to me unless the Father who sent Me draws him.)
To: Elsie
And what does it make Joe? Ummm...Step King of Heaven? ;o)
228
posted on
03/24/2015 12:55:09 PM PDT
by
boatbums
(God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
To: ealgeone
I don’t know how to answer that, neither and both I guess. I’m simply trying to show how it is Mary is the mother of the person Jesus Christ who most Christians agree is God and Man. The term Mary Mother of God was used to counter the recurrent prevailing and for a time ascendant notion that Jesus was a human person only albeit highly blest by God. This notion of the heretical priest Arius guts the story of God’s gift of His son to mankind and the saving action of His passion and death on our account. Mary was truly the mother of the person Jesus who by the overshadowing (conceiving action) of the Holy Spirit was pregnant with the God-man Jesus. This Arian account refutes the scripture notion that God so loved the world He gave his only son to mankind to be humbly born of Woman.
229
posted on
03/24/2015 12:55:16 PM PDT
by
jayker
To: ealgeone
Bernadine:
all gifts, all virtues, and all graces are dispensed by the hands of Mary to whomsoever, when, and as she pleases. O Lady, since thou art the dispenser of all graces, and since the grace of salvation can ONLY come through thy hands, OUR SALVATION DEPENDS ON THEE. Co Mediatrix
Co dispensatrix of all graces
Co Redeemer.
Ever Read DeMontfort? He gets really worshipful on the subject of Mary.
230
posted on
03/24/2015 12:57:02 PM PDT
by
DungeonMaster
(No one can come to me unless the Father who sent Me draws him.)
To: paladinan
And Michal the daughter of Saul had no child till the day of her death. (2 Samuel 6:23) This usage plainly states that after the day of her death, Michal did "have a child". If the word before had been used, we couldnt make that conclusion, but with till, there is no other way to read it.
Now there you go again...Perverting the scripture by changing words for an attempt to defend your indefensible position of Mary's not long for the records virginity...
2Sa 6:23 Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death.
Onto does not mean until...
What's comical is you are far from the first Catholic to throw this deception at us...It's a word for word talking point memo that your religion puts out and we just crush it with Scripture...
231
posted on
03/24/2015 12:59:48 PM PDT
by
Iscool
To: paladinan
Re: latria, dulia, etc.: please do remember that Catholics do not obey the artificial, man-made tradition known as Scripture alone. That's well known...Your religion takes away words from God's scripture, adds words to God's scripture and ultimately ignores God's scripture while making up fable upon fable claiming they are true since your Catholic religion is infallible, according to your religon...
232
posted on
03/24/2015 1:06:36 PM PDT
by
Iscool
To: MHGinTN
>>Okay, if you like, show me how this contradicts scripture.<<
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
2 Samuel 14:14 Like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be recovered, so we must die.
1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
No one has gone to heaven yet.
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
>>Not how you can make some inference based upon what is normative for the rest of humankind<<
What's "normative for the rest of humankind" holds unless there is specific exceptions noted.
>>(well, except Tabitha, and Lazarus, and the widows son, etc).<<
As I said, "unless there is specific exceptions noted". Besides, Jesus said the little girl was not dead.
Mark 5:39 He went in and said to them, "Why all this commotion and wailing? The child is not dead but asleep."
And this is what He said about Lazarus.
John 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Now, do we understand totally? No. What we do know is that all men die. If any circumstances around their being raised or in the case of Elijah and Elisha the scripture clearly mentions the aberrations. Mary died and she is NOT in heaven yet.
233
posted on
03/24/2015 1:08:32 PM PDT
by
CynicalBear
(For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
To: boatbums
Good point. Contradictions created by that interpretation are really not hard to find, but that is a good one.
To: DungeonMaster
Let me put it this way:
Scripture doesn't teach that a person loses the ability to intercede, or ceases to be a member of the Communion of Saints once they enter heaven!
That a person is cut off from the Body of Christ once they are "in Christ" in eternity, makes no sense. That a saint in heaven is disabled in terms of praying or interceding any more, makes no sense.
The burden of proof is on you, to prove that a saint in heaven supposedly is dis-membered from the Body of Christ.
235
posted on
03/24/2015 1:12:43 PM PDT
by
Mrs. Don-o
(The eye can't say to the hand, I don't need you! - The head can't say to the feet, I don't need you!)
To: verga
That’s your response to scripture?
236
posted on
03/24/2015 1:28:29 PM PDT
by
CynicalBear
(For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
To: ealgeone
Evaluating the Greek as used in Luke and John in describing Jesus proves the teaching of the roman catholic church regarding the perpertual virginity of Mary is wrong.
:) This must be some rare, idiomatic usage of the word "prove" of which I was not previously aware...
This explains why you rarely see the roman catholic appeal to the Greek in this matter.
You forgot to "harrumph", after saying that; the rules say that broad-brush, self-serving dismissals need to be followed by a good, resounding "harrumph!"... or at least a French sounding guffaw. :)
In the Greek, Luke uses the phrase τὸν υἱὸν αὐτῆς τὸν πρωτότοκον, translated literally as the son of her, the firstborn. In English we would say, her firstborn son.
Of course.
The key word in this section is πρωτότοκον (prototokos). It means first, pre-eminent; the first among others. It allows for other children to be born to Mary.
Of course, it does. My point is that, as opposed to what some on this board have suggested to the contrary, it doesn't REQUIRE (much less PROVE) subsequent biological children of Mary.
However, He is not the only son of Mary.
If you mean that in the mystical sense that all Christians are true sons of Mary (cf. Revelation 12), then I'd agree absolutely; if, rather, you mean this in the biological sense, then you'd have to offer proof of that statement, before it could move out of the "raw opinion" category.
Recall that Luke was a physician who by his own account researched a lot
That's certainly true.
so we would have an accurate account of what happened.
I would hope so! If nothing else, the Holy Spirit--Who is inspiring the Gospel--would make certain of that.
If Luke wanted to indicate Mary had only one child he would have used the phrase John did.
Hold on: he WOULD have (in the absolute sense of having no other valid options)? Or he "was free to choose it, if he wished"? The second is a valid statement; the first is a wild leap from no solid basis (i.e. a raw opinion).
In reading the accounts where the brothers and sisters of Jesus are mentioned we need to keep the verses in context.
Right. Let's just be careful not to substitute "personal opinion" for "context". (I'd also gently add that any non-Catholic, sola-Scriptura-believing people who try to talk about "context" are necessarily "going beyond what is written" (cf.1 Corinthians 4:6) when they do so... and their efforts are neither infallible nor strictly Biblical; it's mere guesswork and probabilities... which is fine, if one is not trying to prove an opponent wrong "decisively", thereby.
We have the account of Paul in Galatians where he noted he met James, the Lord's brother among others.
Right... just as we have the account of St. Mark, who indicates plainly that the "James" being mentioned in Galatians 2 is the brother of Joseph (or Joses, in some translations), the son of another Mary. (See my previous comment, to that effect.)
These are not cousins of Jesus as the word cousin, ἀνεψιός, is used only in reference to Barnabas's cousin Mark.
By that argument, Abraham and Lot must be siblings... since the word used in the Greek (Septuagint) version of Genesis 13:8 is "adelphos"... the fact of Abraham being Lot's UNCLE notwithstanding... right?
No... "adelphos" is used in a variety of ways in the NT (and in the Greek OT), as I mentioned earlier. Aside from this, your statement is an argument from silence (i.e. "it didn't say [x]; therefore, [x] isn't true"), which is invalid. Had the text specifically said that they had the same biological mother, or that they were biological siblings, etc., THEN you would have a solid case. As it is, such an idea is simply wishful thinking.
[paladinan]
"Brethren" (Gk: "adelphos") was a rendering of the Aramaic word for "kin"--which could mean anything from "blood-sibling" (cf. Matthew 4:21, etc.) to "fellow Israelite" (cf. Phillipians 4:8, etc.) No one can simply (and carelessly) "run away" with the English word "brother", and immediately conclude, "Ah! Blood siblings, and fellow biological children of Mary!" Ditto, for Matthew 12.
[eagleone]
Here is where the roman catholic departs from the clear reading of the text....allowing the text to interpret itself as it does not fit their agenda.
Mm-hmm. We'll see... and I'd gently invite anti-Catholic-Church people to be judged by that same standard.
In Phil 4:8 the text tells us Paul is writing to the church at Philippi. Were fellow believers called brothers and sisters? Yes. And how do we know the difference? CONTEXT IS KEY!!!!!!
:) ...and multiplication of exclamation points (or all-caps) does not substitute for proof. Just saying.
Now, in this next passage in Matt, ask the following questions: Where are they?
[etc., followed by quote of Matthew 13]
Now, after answering the questions and reading the verse in context.....we see Jesus had brothers and sister.
We see that Jesus had people who were addressed as brothers and sister; absent any other information, it would not be unreasonable to suppose that these might refer to siblings. But we *do* have other information:
1) We know, beyond all doubt, that the Bible text (when in Greek) uses the term "adelphos" (and adelphe, adelphoi, etc.) to mean siblings, cousins, nephews, uncles, distant kin, and fellow Israelites.
2) In no case does the Bible ever identify these "brethren of the Lord" as children of Mary. Go check, if you disbelieve.
3) The Hebrew culture of the time makes any portrayal of younger brothers "lording it over" an elder brother extremely suspect (cf. John 7:3-4).
4) Had there been other surviving siblings of Jesus who were children of Mary, it would have been bizarre (and an affrontery, actually) for Jesus to entrust the care of Mary to John (cf. John 19:26-27).
5) The Church Fathers portray the matter of Mary's perpetual virginity as
conclusive and unquestioned, with nary a peep from anyone who allegedly "objected to the unbiblical teaching". That's certainly not a positive proof, in and of itself... but given the complete lack of anything solid from the anti-Catholic-Church side, it's rather more weighty.
6) If Jesus had other brothers, then where *were* they during the time when Jesus was missing for 3 days (at age 12)? Given that Mary is apparently not 9-months-pregnant when searching, it would imply that, if Jesus *were* to have other biological siblings, they would all be less than 18 years old when Jesus began his ministry... and that Mary refrained from having children for a rather long time (at least 12 years).
7) If people want to get picky about specific words: why did Mark 6:3 address Jesus as "THE Son of Mary", as opposed to "*a* son of Mary"? Hardly conclusive, but... just for the record.
There's quite a bit more, on that point; but that should do, for now.
237
posted on
03/24/2015 1:29:22 PM PDT
by
paladinan
(Rule #1: There is a God. Rule #2: It isn't you.)
To: ealgeone
2) the poster is likely a dimocrat and like all dimocrats [...]
Didn't realize this was name calling in your world view. Interesting world in which you live.
It certainly is... though not for the reasons that some people might guess!
But as to your point, perhaps I was hasty: does your keyboard not have a functional "e" key, which forces you to type "dimocrat" (which has the appearance of calling such people "dim", or "slow-witted") instead of "democrat"? And did you purchase a crystal ball by which you can read the heart and mind and voting record of jobim? Otherwise, the statement was utter, self-serving nonsense and insult... and judge of anyone who seeks to call others out on their alleged "name-calling". It's a matter of consistency; that's a little item in vogue among people who are logical...
238
posted on
03/24/2015 1:34:16 PM PDT
by
paladinan
(Rule #1: There is a God. Rule #2: It isn't you.)
To: CynicalBear
There is much ambiquity in the term 'death' or dead. Jesus illustrated this when He told His disciples to 'let THE dead go bury the dead', referring to the youngman who pleaded that he could not join the disciples until his father died.
The temporal reality of the spirit and soul is different from that of the body, which dissolves with physical death. The death Jesus instructs His disciples to be wary of is spiritual death, the finality of which will separate eternally the souls Jesus refers to in 'depart from me, I never knew you'.
With knowledge of the temporal difference for the soul when separated from the body, the best way to refer to that state is 'asleep', since the soul separated from the body, as in sleep, would not be aware of time passage for the physical realm. As such, we have Biblical scenes where someone is 'translated' to a different realm than the physical spacetime of the physical body, but not so high as 'Heaven'. The ambiguity is complicated by the terms used for 'paradise', 'third Heaven', etc. So, to claim that Mary cannot be anywhere except 'asleep' in separation from the physical body is at best ambiguously framed. The realm into which Jesus entered upon leaving the tomb was even described by Him as 'not yet ascended unto my father' yet somehow unsensed by those still in this physical 3D realm.
There are many portions of the Bible which I believe are poorly understood, and the reality of several realms that are not Heaven and not 'this earthly sphere' is one such area of debate.
All that said, I do not fully accept your declaration regarding the where/when of Mary, IF God chose to bring her out of our 4D spacetime and into a separate, real, spacetime so that her body would not see corruption. And I'm certain you are aware of the 'two witnesses' who will be sent from Heaven and will be murdered and their bodies lie in the open for three days before being resurrected. The soul of those two may not be in a where/when now that is Heaven, but rather in a where/when that exists between Heaven and our realm.
In any event, I don't mean to drag you into an uncomfortable discussion. Have a pleasant afternoon and thank you for sharing your Bible verses with us.
239
posted on
03/24/2015 1:34:54 PM PDT
by
MHGinTN
(Is it really all relative, Mister Einstein?)
To: ealgeone
240
posted on
03/24/2015 1:42:26 PM PDT
by
CynicalBear
(For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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