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Rejecting Mariology
Two-Edged Sword ^
| February 05, 2007
| Lee
Posted on 03/23/2015 2:14:57 PM PDT by RnMomof7
It is often claimed the Mary was heralded by the Patristics as a woman full of grace, perhaps sinless, and deserving our veneration above other departed saints as the Mother of the Church. This is not the case. While I do freely admit that the word Patristic can be used to cover a variety of ages, I prefer to use it to the pre-nicaean leaders of the church. Let us start with them, and we can move on from there.
In the Apostolic Fathers, as the first century leaders are often called, one sees little to no mention of Mary at all. Clement of Rome leaves her out of his epistle completely. This is a glaring omission for Mary full of grace since Clements entire letter is about submission, faith, and peace. Clement uses as examples of Christian living Paul, Peter, Moses, Abraham, David, and several martyrs in addition to Jesus Christ. Beyond that he even uses a few women as examples. Rahab gets the most ink as a wonderful example of faith, two women killed by Nero are mentioned, Esther get a paragraph, as does Judith from the Apocrypha. But no Mary. First century writers seem to view Mary as a good believer, but nothing more, much like Protestants today.
Second century writers turn up the first exaltation references to Mary, but even these are over stated. Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, and Tertullian all try to draw Mary as the anti-type of Eve as Jesus was of Adam. This leads to some grandiose statements about Mary, but the ancient mind often thought more typologically and allegorically then we do today. These men did not have any allusions about Mary being above sin (original or actual). In fact Irenaeus condemns Mary as a sinner for her role in the Wedding of Cana arguing that Jesus rebukes her for her presumptuous pride. Tertullian along with other second century leaders like Origen and later writers like Basil the Great and Chrysostom (4th century) all ascribe to Mary the sins of maternal vanity, anxiety, and doubt and state that the sword that pierces Marys soul in Luke 2:35 are these sins. Hardly a high view of Mary despite their typological attempts.
The rise of Mary really follows the rise of Monasticism and the encroachment of Neo-platonism into Christianity. The third and fourth centuries see apocryphal texts like the Gospel of the birth of Mary, which were all condemned by the church as a whole, but eventually the teachings of these books would be folded into the Mariology of the Roman church. The asceticism of the monastic orders arising from their neo-platonic view of the flesh exalted Mary as the ultimate example and claimed for her perpetual virginity. This helped give their life-style a bigger backing as well as giving them a patron saint.
The controversies of the 5th century about Christ led to Mary being the Mother of God as a test of orthodoxy. Mother of God was not meant to convey anything at all about Mary, but rather something about the natures of Jesus. However, it would come to be twisted to elevate Mary into something higher than merely human. The first person to actually advocate Mary did not have any actual or original sin was Pelegius, the free-will opponent of Augustine. During this time also one must remember that Rome was destroyed by the uneducated and pagan barbarians. As the centers of learning were destroyed the educated clergy could no longer restrain phrases like Mother of God and Mariology became Marialotry took on a life of its own as the masses carried Mary to extremes she was never meant to reach. By the time of Gregory the Great, Bishop of Rome, Mary was installed in her current position for the Roman church. Gregory freely instructed his missionaries to the barbarians not to destroy pagan temples, but rename them and the statues in them. Many pagan temples were to women, and Mary worship was well on its way.
Thus, I do not think Protestantism needs a Mariology at all. Mary is a wonderful example of saintly piety and faith as are many people in the Bible. She should not be avoided for she is the mother of our Lord. But we must remember, as I believe the Reformed tradition does, she is simply one of his disciples no better than any other believer in Christ. This is, after all, exactly what our Lord teaches in Matthew 12:47-50.
Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
TOPICS: Catholic; Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian
KEYWORDS: christ; mary; worship
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To: Salvation
WAHHHHHH!!!!!!
No. I didn’t say “you”.
Try some reading comprehension.
101
posted on
03/23/2015 7:08:11 PM PDT
by
metmom
(...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
To: Salvation
Guilty conscience?
Throw a rock over a fence and the dog that yelps is the one that got hit.
102
posted on
03/23/2015 7:09:04 PM PDT
by
metmom
(...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
To: Mark17
Normal human reproduction, otherwise known as sex. But some so-called church "fathers" saw marriage and its relations as unclean.
103
posted on
03/23/2015 7:09:33 PM PDT
by
daniel1212
(Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
To: daniel1212; Mark17
And that mentality is still alive and well in the RCC.
Not much has changed over the years, has it?
104
posted on
03/23/2015 7:11:03 PM PDT
by
metmom
(...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
To: Salvation; metmom
That is elevating obedience to Mary above obedience to Jesus. Obey Jesus becuause Mary said so? Really? Mind reading again?
Man alive, that makes you look desperate! That constitutes mind reading? Trying to figure that out, or why you said it, invites mind reading!
105
posted on
03/23/2015 7:14:47 PM PDT
by
daniel1212
(Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
To: daniel1212; Salvation; metmom
I just checked the boards at Vegas...even money bet someone runs to the religion moderator. :)
To: Mrs. Don-o
I respect you for you postings in other areas but cannot agree with you on Mary. Sorry.
107
posted on
03/23/2015 8:13:00 PM PDT
by
Mom MD
To: all the best
Is Jesus God? Was the incarnation the greatest story ever told? Why? Was it not because God so loved the world He gave his only son to mankind to dwell among us, save us redeem us? Did not the person Jesus Christ, the divine person Jesus have the nature of God and the nature of man? Was the person Jesus Christ born of Woman? Was not Mary his mother? Was she the mother of the human nature of Jesus or was she the mother of the person Jesus? When your mother gave birth to you did you have a soul? Did she create your soul, your mother? But non the less even though your soul was created in eternity your mother non the less gave birth to you body and soul? She was the your mother?
The notion of Mary as mother of God simply confirms the Churches understanding that Jesus was both God and man not just man who did powerful holy things. No Arius was wrong. The person Mary gave birth to was both God and man. Thus Jesus born of the woman Mary was truly God and thus God’s greatest gift to man and One sufficient to redeem man. Mary was His mother in the flesh and The Holy Spirit- the Sanctifier and giver of life conceived Jesus in her womb. Mary was the mother of the person Jesus who was both God and man. The birth of the Son of God Who was one with the Father before all ages, the birth of Jesus to the woman Mary is the greatest mystery, gift, and story in the entire history of Heaven and earth.
108
posted on
03/23/2015 9:00:37 PM PDT
by
jayker
To: jayker
Who you building up here? Jesus or Mary?
To: Old Yeller
And as a former ex-Catholic, I am praying for your return.
110
posted on
03/23/2015 9:52:30 PM PDT
by
moonhawk
(What if they gave a crisis and nobody came?)
To: ealgeone; Elsie
1) You've won the argument when the names start coming out
What name-calling? Do you mean "hardened anti-Catholics (HAC)" is name-calling? I really meant it only as a descriptive. I honestly have no ill-regard for you, as I don't know you. I'll be glad to modify that name to "passionately anti-Catholic" or "enthusiastically anti-Catholic" if that is more suitable.
2) the poster is likely a dimocrat and like all dimocrats the names start coming out when they're losing the argument or they try to shift the topic of conversation.
Even you might be surprised how far off you are the mark on this one! I donated to Ted Cruz at midnight last night after the announcement. I watched in joy his speech today at Jerry Falwell's Liberty University. In attendance was probably a former student of mine I helped enroll there through letters of recommendation.
And no, not shifting the topic, just directing my comments at fellow Catholics.
111
posted on
03/23/2015 9:52:31 PM PDT
by
jobim
To: paladinan
But to your point: no omnipotence is needed. Mary, and all the Saints, are in Heaven... which is beyond time (and space) completely. There is no past or future; there's only an eternal "now". Mary, for example, doesn't need to handle "millions of prayers per second" (those are scare quotes, not direct quotes, BTW); she has all eternity in which to respond to them. There's no "rushing" or "waiting", etc., in Heaven.That's some pretty poor philosophy there...Time may be meaningless to Mary but it's pretty important to people on earth praying to her...
112
posted on
03/23/2015 11:07:55 PM PDT
by
Iscool
To: Mrs. Don-o
In the case of Mary, it's strictly a relational thing: Christ her Son is King of Kings; that makes her Queen Mother by relationship alone. It does not indicate personal sovereignty. Then why pray to her to ask her for salvation and grace, and help and healing??? And to answer prayers if she has no sovereignty???
113
posted on
03/23/2015 11:39:36 PM PDT
by
Iscool
To: Mrs. Don-o
Foster Father of the Savior; Patron of the Universal ChurchNope...Joseph was not the Foster Father...He was technically the Step-Father...The husband of Mary...Thus the real King of heaven...If Mary is the Queen, Joseph is the King...
114
posted on
03/24/2015 12:04:04 AM PDT
by
Iscool
To: ealgeone
I just checked the boards at Vegas...even money bet someone runs to the religion moderator. :) Now there are two bets...The 2nd one on who it is that runs to the moderator...
115
posted on
03/24/2015 12:14:28 AM PDT
by
Iscool
To: Iscool
I don't mean "foster father" in the 21st century USA sense, of being a man licensed by the Child Protective Services to temporarily care for a child who has been removed from their parental home. I mean "foster" in the older sense of "carer and provider." "Step" father works, too.
As for Joseph's relation to the Royal Line of David, he was of the House of David in his own right. If you want to explore all the dynastic or courtly implications thereof, go right ahead.
But it does not automatically follow that if he was the husband of Mary and step-father of Jesus, he was King of the Universe. It doesn't work that way, for instance in Jewish monarchies. Was Jesse, as David's father, considered King of Israel? You see the problem.
116
posted on
03/24/2015 4:09:56 AM PDT
by
Mrs. Don-o
(Seriously.)
To: Iscool
I could pray to YOU, iscool, to intercede for me for salvation and grace, help and healing. Intercession is all that’s implied, and intercession is not a function of personal sovereignty.
117
posted on
03/24/2015 4:12:25 AM PDT
by
Mrs. Don-o
(Seriously.)
To: RnMomof7
>> Mariology <<
More like Mariolatry than just Mariology, IMHO.
118
posted on
03/24/2015 4:17:23 AM PDT
by
imardmd1
(Fiat Lux)
To: Mrs. Don-o; Iscool
I could pray to YOU, iscool, to intercede for me for salvation and grace, help and healing. Intercession is all thats implied, and intercession is not a function of personal sovereignty. With all due respect to Iscool, he/she can only pray to God on your behalf.
You can ask iscool to pray for you as they are a person here on earth and this would be in line with the examples we have in the NT; but you do not pray TO iscool; just as we do not pray TO Mary. Neither of the last two would be examples found in the NT.
To: jobim; goodwithagun
HAC is a lot less wordy than my name for them: Westboro Wing of the Free Republic Evangelical Dispensationlist Caucus of the Free Repubulic Religious Forum. My apologies to you jobim.....got you confused with the other poster.
It's actually goodwithagun who lost whatever argument they were trying to make based on the title they are using.
Always funny when catholics are told the truth about their religion they claim it's hate or anti-catholic....yet I find they cannot defend their positions from a Biblical perspective, which they claim they are able to do.
Glad to hear you donated to Cruz. He gave a powerful speech at one of those "hardened anti-catholic" schools" yesterday. :)
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