Posted on 03/14/2015 6:43:21 PM PDT by ebb tide
I never hinted at how common I think salvation by baptism of desire is. I said “many.” Since there are about SIX BILLION unbaptized people in the world, I think it’s safe to say that “many” people have been saved through baptism of desire.
At any rate, if you believe in baptism of desire, which Feeneyites deny, we aren’t talking any longer about principle. We are talking only about your estimate of what my estimate may be of how many people are saved through baptism of desire. And I never hinted at what my estimate may be—for the simple reason that I have no clue.
I like it that the world is coming to a merciful end.
My uncle, who is a pastor, would certainly discuss which of my choices God disapproved of, if I were to ask. And, amazingly enough, I would not feel brutalized afterward.
But given just how difficult it is to obtain baptism of desire, it would *not* be safe to say "many" people have been saved by it. For all we know there have been "very few" people saved by BOD since the Resurrection.
To say "many" leads others (Catholics and non-Catholics alike) to believe that it's not that difficult for a non-Catholic to get into Heaven. To speak of baptism by desire in such a fashion only serves to encourage, what for all intents and purposes has been, the post-VII erosion of Outside the Catholic Church There is No Salvation.
Then you had no business saying this:
I am sure that there are many great, holy mystics among Protestants, Jews, Muslims, and even pagans, and that many in those religions have experienced baptism of desire, and thus have the theological virtues and sanctifying grace, and will enter into the Beatific Vision when they die.
It was irresponsible at best.
I never used any word but “many.” I never said “most,” or “a large part,” or any equivalent.
In view of the fact that BILLIONS of people have been unbaptized, I am quite sure that there are MANY unbaptized people in heaven.
Do you have (traditional) Catholic teaching to back up your certainty?
Is the Baltimore Catechism “traditional” enough for you?
I don’t need to cite any sources, because you already AGREED to the reality of Baptism of Desire.
Or do you want me to say, “I think only about three Protestants and two Muslims have ever been saved.”
If a person does not believe that the Catholic Church is the true Church, is telling him that the Catholic Church teaches that he is certain to go to hell supposed to scare him? I’m sure there are dozens of churches in Kentucky alone that believe that I am going to hell because I am Catholic. Ask me if I care.
If he DOES believe the Catholic Churchh is the true Church, then he will know that he is obliged to join. OTHER PEOPLE’s ODDS of going to heaven and hell are absolutely immaterial.
Jesus was asked whether they are many or few who are saved. HE DID NOT ANSWER THE QUESTION. He said what YOU are to do: Try to enter by the narrow gate. He said what YOU are to do.
Because the gospel is not about ODDS. It is about God’s loving me, and my loving God.
When a couple marry, they don’t vow to take a chance on marriage. The groom doesn’t say, “There is a 56% chance that I will be faithful.” He promises what HE will do.
I detect in many, many people a revulsion at the idea that more than a literal handful of non-Catholics have been saved. They will grudgingly admit that Baptism of Desire exists (in principle), but they eagerly return, again and again, to contemplating the delicious image of masses of souls, glowing from within like coals, tumbling in the raging fires of hell. It’s their pornography.
And you have not really answered my question.
I detect from most Novus Ordo types the need to include as many non-Catholics in the BOD framework when that was never the teaching of the Catholic Church. Not only did you say many (which by the way is defined as a lot, numerous, etc), but you also said you were SURE that they were saved.
I have dear family members who are non-Catholic. In fact, my parents are elderly and I’ll be lucky if they’re around another 5 years. How dare you suggest that I am one of the ones who “contemplate the delicious image of masses of souls, glowing from within like coals, tumbling in the raging fires of hell.”? For me, this isn’t about damning others. It is about speaking the Truth .... even if it hurts.
I hate when Novus Ordo types speak of BOD as if it’s not something very rare and difficult to obtain. I really hate it when priests, who should know better, do it.
I think we’re done here.
You keep ignoring that I keep mentioning that there have been BILLIONS of unbaptized persons since the time of Christ. I think it is reasonable to believe that “many” of those people have been saved. I have no idea how many that is. More than enough for a small dinner party, I should think.
If a person BELIEVES in the Catholic Church, he is obliged to join it. His “chances” of salvation if he refuses to join are 0%. If he does not believe in it, why should he give two figs what the Catholic Church holds on the matter?
In other words, the number or percentage of people who are saved by BoD is OF NO RELEVANCE to those baptized in the Catholic Church and of no relevance to those who DO NOT BELIEVE in the Catholic Church.
How a theological point that is irrelevant to every person on earth can assume such vital importance to some people is a mystery.
I'll also note that you changed your story from talking about the six billion people in the world to the billions of people since the time of Christ. Not that that changes my view at all, but it is interesting to note.
And as for your latest dig about "how a theological point that is irrelevant to every person on earth can assume such vital importance to some people is a mystery":
I don't normally discuss this topic much (actually, after dealing with a number of Feeneyites I actually tend to avoid it). What raised my hackles was your continued insistence that you know for a fact that there are many Jews, pagans, and Muslims in Heaven despite the fact that the Church teaches that it is extremely difficult for a non-Catholic to get to Heaven (or at least it used to...now we have a hierarchy that doesn't even care if non-Catholics convert or not).
Most of the Catholics on this board will listen to you because you are supposedly a priest (and I admit that I'm beginning to question that). If you truly believe that BOD is a possibility and not a given, then you need to be careful of how you word things. Because, although you seem to think BOD is irrelevant it's actually quite relevant when it is spoken about in such a way to give others the impression that it's just a loophole for non-Catholics who never get baptized with water. You should also be real clear on what is needed to obtain BOD. It is most definitely not just for really good, ignorant Jews and really good, ignorant Muslims.
And now I'm really done here.
When I said I was “sure” I meant, simply, that I think it is unreasonable to believe the opposite, namely: BoD is possible in principle, but it has NEVER happened.
It is trivial whether I said six billion or “billions since the time of Christ.” That would be six billion or what?—ten billion, fifteen billion?
So what if a billion non-Christians got into heaven? That would make the Catholic Church superfluous?
Uggh.
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