Posted on 03/04/2015 9:35:19 AM PST by marshmallow
Recently, Cardinal Burke stated that, if Pope Francis were to endorse a position on marriage and sexuality that were contrary to the tradition of the Church, that he would be obliged to “resist” the pontiff. Although the cardinal clarified that he was speaking of a purely hypothetical situation, he hit upon a nerve that gets struck from time to time among Catholics—in instant messages, in passing, on Facebook, though almost never in print—“What if?” What if Cardinal Kasper’s ideology takes over the upcoming Ordinary Synod on Marriage and the Family? What if the behind-the-scenes machinations of his supporters ultimately win the day? What if the pope lets civilly divorced and remarried Catholics receive communion?
Fr. James Schall identified the dilemma last year, when he pointed out that the elephant in the room is the question of heresy. If Church discipline of excluding Catholics who have obtained a civil divorce and remarriage from Communion is based on infallible Church doctrine about sin and repentance, and if the pope tries to change that discipline, wouldn’t that make the pope a heretic concerning that doctrine?
In the finest tradition of Jesuit discourse, Fr. Schall insisted that we talk about the elephant rather than staring at it. I agree because I know that God is not going to let us down, and neither is Pope Francis.
What is a heretic?
In order to even talk about the elephant, we have to identify it. A “heretic” is someone guilty of a heresy. According to the Catechism, “heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same.” A heretic differs from an “apostate,” who is guilty of “apostasy” (the total repudiation of the.....
(Excerpt) Read more at crisismagazine.com ...
I don’t know how but you’ve got it all mixed up and this business about “God’s message” sounds like mormonism. God doesn’t speak to the pope and tell him “stuff”. He’s not an oracle.
And no, there is no voting on infallible statements, the pope is supreme.
Like Mormonism there seems to be a lot of word games and slipperiness, and avoiding of plain language.
How does God tell him something that he then passes on to his fellow church members?
It seems to me that Mrs. Don-o has said that it isn’t “infallible” until it is sort of voted on, or approved by other church members, and I think that she doesn’t believe at all that the Pope is infallible, when it comes to him canonizing Saints.
God does not do this. Plain enough language for you?
No, it isn’t plain at all.
Where is he getting the information that is supposed to be infallible?
I can't get any plainer than "God doesn't do this".
Where is he getting the information that is supposed to be infallible?
From the "Deposit of Faith" (Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition) left to us by Our Lord and His Apostles.
Put more accurately it should be "What does Jesus Christ say about divorce?"
Matthew 19:
3 The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause? 4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, 5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? 6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
7 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery. (KJV)
Pretty straight forward isn't it? Yet any church will get every scripture wrong if they do not get regeneration correctly. For any interpretation or exegesis with the heart of man will get the words of Christ wrong.
So anyone can read the deposit of faith and make infallible Catholic doctrine and infallibly create new saints?
You make it sound like a scholarly thing.
Can't say that I blame you. He speaks of wealth redistribution yet has not touched the Vatican riches first.
I don't think given the audience Jesus had to address what we call today "no fault divorce."
Source please.
Could be the harlot riding the beast.
Good to see you back.
God Bless and praying for a speedy recovery!
Ansel12, I said nothing of the kind. I don't think you'll listen to me here, but I'm just putting this on the thread so that regular readers and lurkers will have it underscored that you keep reverting to this "God told him" "God's message" stuff as if we were Mormons or something, and that is not AT ALL what infallibility is about.
I also didn't say anything about "voting" on infallible pronouncements. Not one word.
I also didn't say anything about the "individual Catholic deciding for himself." You got that all out of your own extrapolation or imagination, not from what I wrote.
You also completely ignored what I wrote about teachings of the Magisterium being authoritative even when they are not infallible.
I hate having to continuously refute absurd commentaries on things I never said in the first place. Your own imaginative reconstruction of Catholicism is not attractive; and, at this point, beyond tedious.
This is like trying to get information from Mormons, look at what you just posted.
So who decides if the Pope is being infallible, and where is the information coming from that he is delivering to you infallibly?
DEFINING THE DOGMA OF THE ASSUMPTION
Read the 48 footnotes. Make a reasonable effort.
Get back to me in a week or so about what you now know about the sources of this infallible statement.
List at least 10.
Quote exactly the words which indicate that this is infallible.
Now I'm going back to bed.
Thank you.
No thanks, the Mormons also do that, it shouldn’t be so hard to answer post 95.
“who decides if the Pope is being infallible, and where is the information coming from, that he is delivering to you infallibly?”
"These words are found in this volume: "Venerable to us, O Lord, is the festivity of this day on which the holy Mother of God suffered temporal death, but still could not be kept down by the bonds of death, who has begotten your Son our Lord incarnate from herself." [http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xii/en/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_p-xii_apc_19501101_munificentissimus-deus.html]
So why do Catholics keep claiming that the Catholic Church doesn't say whether Mary died or not?
Even if it were true, which you have yet to prove, Catholics don't need to because they have Catholic sanctioned divorce that they relabel and repackage as *annulment*.
Don't want to be married? Just go to your priest, claim the marriage isn't valid, and pay enough money and viola, free of your marriage vows with no guilt or consequences.
I have known many Catholics that were not granted an annulment. So you don’t know what you’re talking about. And once again protestants started no-fault divorces AND protestants started birth control pills. All of this garbage coming from the liberal protestant hippy “free-love” movement in the 1960s. An open invitation to have all the sex you wanted out of wedlock. Protestants destroyed marriage in this country before the homosexual movement finished it off.
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