Faith Alone v. Forgiving Trespasses: How the Lord's Prayer Contradicts the Reformation

Catholic Defense ^ | February 25, 2015

[metmom]

Regarding your mention of the term Limbo. It was a speculative idea that has fallen out of use. It has never been official doctrine.

It sure terrified enough parents into getting their babies baptized ASAP.

[metmom]

Welcome to FR.

[metmom]

Snippets of Luther taken out of context are no more valid than snippets of anything taken out of context.

I don’t believe them for one minute.

[rwa265]

It sure terrified enough parents into getting their babies baptized ASAP.

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This is true. My brother was baptized twice. He was born on All Saints Day (November 1) and died two days later. Our family has always thought of him as our little saint in heaven.

[Elsie]

What are His commandments?

What are ROME's commandments?

[Elsie]

It’s not a solemnly defined dogma.

It is a teaching of the Ordinary Magisterium.

As such, every Catholic is required to assent to it.

Oh...

[Elsie]

There is therefore no rational basis for holding that if Christians IN HEAVEN offer prayers, intercession, etc., that they are usurping the functions of Christ or the Holy Spirit.

Assumiong facts not in evidence.

[Elsie]

All baptized people would go to 1) Hell; 2) Heaven; 3) Purgatory, followed by Heaven.

And just where would the Unbaptized go?

[Elsie]

That's the point....there is a movement to have the pope use his "ex cathedra" to make this an officially approved dogma of the rcc.

Huh?

The UNCHANGABLE Catholic Church?

[Elsie]

Do you say it?

#168

[Elsie]

You believe that the Hebrew or Jewish belief at any given moment in the many centuries before Christ was the final, fully-developed truth?

You believe that Catholic teaching was the final, fully-developed truth soon after Christ ascended to Heaven?

How does one then justify the 3 Portuguese children?

[redleghunter]

LOL post #226 was removed because Arthur used “the name that shall not be named.”

[Legatus]

The CAtholic Church does a REALLY loud job of proclaiming DEAD people to be ALIVE!

Elsie, may I call you Bernice, or perhaps Matilda, or better yet...

Regardless,

The Catholic Church does a REALLY loud job of proclaiming people to be ALIVE in Christ!

[Tao Yin]

The Our Father. Do you say it?

I too prefer the title "Our Father" rather than the "Lord's Prayer". I say it several times a week.

Regarding the Our Father, Luther's small catechism addresses the fifth petition with the following explanation.

And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.

What does this mean?

We pray in this petition that our Father in heaven would not look upon our sins, nor deny such petitions on account of them; for we are worthy of none of the things for which we pray, neither have we deserved them; but that He would grant them all to us by grace; for we daily sin much, and indeed deserve nothing but punishment. So will we verily, on our part, also heartily forgive and also readily do good to those who sin against us.

Before this thread, I've heard people claim that the fifth petition is an example of works righteousness. Claiming that we gain forgiveness only after forgiving others. I thought it was silly idea then, just as I do now.

I would ask, why do we forgive others? So that we can earn forgiveness for ourselves? No! We forgive because we were forgiven first and our forgiveness of others is an outpouring of the new man.

Works righteousness is a stain that perverts everything it touches. It changes our natural response to God into a qualification to earn his grace.

[CynicalBear]

I can assure you that I have read enough of what the Catholic Church teaches to understand that it’s unscriptural paganism and the double speak is astounding. Catholics think that if we “just read” we would somehow capitulate. Their teaching is “another gospel” edwinland. The more I learn the more convinced I am of that. It’s a dangerous perversion of what Christ and the apostles taught.

[rwa265]

What are ROME’s commandments?

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Don’t know if Rome has any commandments, but you can find information on Roman law here:

http://www.ask.com/wiki/List_of_Roman_laws?lang=en#Roman_laws

[redleghunter]

An essential aspect of internal Catholic practice therefore requires that the Catholic give religious submission of mind and will to the authentic Magisterium of the Pope and this even if he is not speaking ex cathedra. An essential component of internal Catholic practice is that the Pope's ordinary teaching at a minimum must be religiously submitted to by both intellect and will.

I hope Francis the first does not log on to FR regarding the above.

[CynicalBear]

That whole “obey the pope” deal should set not a few Catholics back on their heals. :-)

[redleghunter]

The light of God's face shines in all its beauty on the countenance of Jesus Christ, "the image of the invisible God" (Col 1:15), the "reflection of God's glory" (Heb 1:3), "full of grace and truth" (Jn 1:14). Christ is "the way, and the truth, and the life" (Jn 14:6). Consequently the decisive answer to every one of man's questions, his religious and moral questions in particular, is given by Jesus Christ, or rather is Jesus Christ himself, as the Second Vatican Council recalls: "In fact,it is only in the mystery of the Word incarnate that light is shed on the mystery of man. For Adam, the first man, was a figure of the future man, namely, of Christ the Lord. It is Christ, the last Adam, who fully discloses man to himself and unfolds his noble calling by revealing the mystery of the Father and the Father's love".

How does one say the above as JPII did and yet do this: