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Locked on 02/25/2015 3:29:26 PM PST by Jim Robinson, reason:
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Posted on 02/20/2015 12:33:03 PM PST by RnMomof7
-— O.K., without an inerrant leader, we all get to decide on what the truth is -—
There is a great psychological appeal to Luther’s tradition. One can emphasize or de-emphasize Scriptural passages to support one’s behavior and never be held to account by any earthly authority, except one’s conscience.
And one’s conscience can be assuaged by selectively citing Scripture to rationalize sinful behavior.
Luther had a strong psychological motivation for inventing his tradition of “faith alone.” He was scrupulous, and never felt forgiven, despite the words of absolution and spiritual counsel.
His doctrine permitted a Christian to “sin boldly” without concern for his salvation.
And Luther’s tradition of “Scripture alone” made it possible for him to ignore the Church and twist Scripture to support his doctrine. And it was quite a twist, since the sole mention of “faith alone” appears in James: “a man is saved by what he does and not by faith alone.”
And I believe you TC have said you think you disagree with the pope on some religious matters....however, the pope has said:
“We declare, say , define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” -Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam (1302 AD)
You have to do/believe/think whatever the pope says in these matters. You have NO CHOICE.
So I guess there are 1.2 billion little catholic churches running around!
To you, it may be...to 1,300,000,000 Catholics, and to innumerable Catholics over 20 CENTURIES, it is the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ under the appearance of bread and wine....How sad that you can't comprehend the truth...
LOL! No need to Reset.
And you would be wrong...more catholic propaganda you've been lead to believe. So if you're wrong on your "all inclusive" statement regarding the ECFs on the Eucharist....why should we believe anything else you say.
Some dissenting ECFs.
3.Augustine says Christ's words in John 6 about his body and blood are figurative. "If the sentence is one of command, either forbidding a crime or vice, or enjoining an act of prudence or benevolence, it is not figurative. If, however, it seems to enjoin a crime or vice, or to forbid an act of prudence or benevolence, it is figurative. 'Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man,' says Christ, 'and drink His blood, ye have no life in you.' This seems to enjoin a crime or a vice; it is therefore a figure, enjoining that we should have a share in the sufferings of our Lord, and that we should retain a sweet and profitable memory of the fact that His flesh was wounded and crucified for us."--(Augustine, On Christian Doctrine, 3:16:24)
2.Clement of Alexandria said the bread and wine were symbols, metaphor. "Elsewhere the Lord, in the Gospel according to John, brought this out by symbols, when He said: 'Eat ye my flesh, and drink my blood,' describing distinctly by metaphor the drinkable properties of faith and the promise, by means of which the Church, like a human being consisting of many members, is refreshed and grows, is welded together and compacted of both,--of faith, which is the body, and of hope, which is the soul; as also the Lord of flesh and blood. For in reality the blood of faith is hope, in which faith is held as by a vital principle."--(Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor, 1:6)
4.Eusebius (263-339)1.Eusebius says the Communion is 'only the bread and wine,' "And the fulfilment of the oracle is truly wondrous, to one who recognizes how our Saviour Jesus the Christ of God even now performs through His ministers even today sacrifices after the manner of Melchizedek's. For just as he, who was priest of the Gentiles, is not represented as offering outward sacrifices, but as blessing Abraham only with wine and bread, in exactly the same way our Lord and Saviour Himself first, and then all His priests among all nations, perform the spiritual sacrifice according to the customs of the Church, and with wine and bread darkly express the mysteries of His Body and saving Blood." (Eusebius, Demonstratio Evangelica, 5:3)
6.Tertullian (155-220)1.Tertullian says the communion bread represents Christ's body. "Indeed, up to the present time, he has not disdained the water which the Creator made wherewith he washes his people; nor the oil with which he anoints them; nor that union of honey and milk wherewithal he gives them the nourishment of children; nor the bread by which he represents his own proper body, thus requiring in his very sacraments the 'beggarly elements' of the Creator." (Tertullian, Against Marcion, 1:14)
What is your scriptural proof that Christ is continually being sacrificed. That was your assertion and that was the proof that I requested of you.
Why are you evading the question? What is the scriptural proof for Christ's continuing sacrifice?
Let me give you a hint: there is none. The only "proof" is a bunch of pap made up by the Roman Catholic Cult and sold as "Holy Tradition."
"Holy Tradition" == False Gospel.
Here's some scriptural proof that refutes what you're trying to sell:
Luke 24:4-7:
"While they were perplexed about this, behold, two men stood by them in dazzling apparel. 5 And as they were frightened and bowed their faces to the ground, the men said to them, “Why do you seek the living among the dead? 6 He is not here, but has risen. Remember how he told you, while he was still in Galilee, 7 that the Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men and be crucified and on the third day rise.”"
Hmmm. Doesn't sound like he's still on the cross. Let's see... Even Christ HIMSELF refutes your assertion:
John19:20
"When Jesus had received the sour wine, he said, “It is finished,” and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit."
What was finished, I wonder? The once and final sacrifice for our sins? Did you catch that? FINISHED..
Let's see if there's anything else...
Mark 16:19
"So then the Lord Jesus, gafter he had spoken to them, was taken up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God."
Aaaaand....
Luke 22:69
"69 But from now on the Son of Man shall be seated at the right hand of the power of God.”"
Hmmmm. Oddly, Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father.... in direct opposition to your claim!
But wait -- we have a witness to the fact!
Acts 7: 55-56
"But he [Stephan], full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56 And he said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”
So...again, I ask, what is your scriptural PROOF that Christ is being continually crucified/sacrificed??
Hoss
Okay then; I won’t.
You keep quoting numbers....the muslims and hindus can quote big numbers also. Does that mean they're right?
You do realize at one time Jesus had 70 disciples and those dwindled to 12. Point being, big numbers mean nothing to God. Ask Gideon.
Acts 2:32-36 This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses. Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing. For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says, “‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.”’ Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.”
Acts 5:30-31 The God of our fathers raised Jesus, whom you killed by hanging him on a tree. God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.
Ephesians 1:15-23 For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love toward all the saints, I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.
Ephesians 2:4-6 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Colossians 3:1 If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
Romans 8:34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.
Hebrews 1:1-4 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.
Hebrews 9:11-17 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.
Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.
Hebrews 8:1-2 Now the point in what we are saying is this: we have such a high priest, one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, a minister in the holy places, in the true tent that the Lord set up, not man.
Hebrews 9:24-28 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.
Hebrews 10:8-14 When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law), then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second. And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
Hebrews 10:15-18 And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying, “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds,” then he adds, “I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.” Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.
Hebrews 12:1-2 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.
1 Peter 3:21-22 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.
The president of the U.S. cannot divulge confidential information....if he divulges it, it is no longer confidential.
Jesus cannot violate any biblicaal law....if He does the act, it is no longer a violation ...see??
Well, there ya go. I don't suppose you would want me to think you do the same things as Pelosi would you? She is after all Catholic. Nope, they don't don.
>>So, they are ALL wrong?<<
If they think Christ was talking about His real physical blood they most certainly are. Just as thinking Ezekiel, Jeremiah, and John actually ate the literal physical scroll would be.
>>Why are churches telling people to participate in symbolizing a sinful act?<<
I have no idea don. I suppose it depends also on what they are symbolizing. I don't purport to know exactly what each one believes. I can assure you that if they believe it was the literal flesh and blood of Christ the too would have to believe that Jesus sinned against the law.
It's the words, the information that is contained in scripture that is what gives nourishment to the believer. When He said that if we drink of the water He gives that rivers of water would run from our bellies He didn't mean we would literally need to stay next to a water way either.
Jesus said that He came to offer His life as a ransom for many, that HE laid His life down and nobody takes it from Him.
God didn’t give us Jesus for us to offer Jesus to God as a sacrifice for our sins ourselves. He’s not a commodity that we bring to God as the Israelites brought the lamb for their sacrifice.
The Holy Spirit is the Third Person of the Holy Trinity; Christ is the Second.
Yes he was....and will always be....but he was wrong when he revolted, is wrong now, and will ever be wrong.....sad.
So when it says He ascended and was "received into heaven" it doesn't really mean that?
Mark 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
And when He sat at the right hand of God He had really been there the whole time?
Is Christ still ascending? Is He still dying on that cross? You did say "His sacrifice is happening NOW because to Him ther is no past, no future - only His eternal NOW". So which is it. Only some things are happening perpetually or just some things?
Metmom, can you tell me what these mean?
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Philippians 2:12
Or this?
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Matthew 7:21
Or this?
Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:54
Not an anology at all....once a Catholic meaans that if you are validyy baptized, you are a Catholic. You cannot be baptized a Lutheran, a Methodist or anything else.
It doesn't matter where you are baptized nor by who.....you are baptized a Catholic.
If you leave the Catholic church and practice in the Baptist denomination you consider yourself a Baptist. When, however, you realize the error of your ways and rejoin the Catholic church.....you don't even have to be re-baptized because you've already been baptized Catholic....see??
We are saved judicially and seated in heaven with Christ Jesus. It’s a done deal.
While here on earth, we still need to be conformed into the image of Christ here on earth.
When you buy a new car, the car is yours. You still need to learn all the intricacies of that particular vehicle so that you can drive it efficiently, without being distracted about how to turn on the a/c or wipers, so the driving it becomes second nature, so to speak.
Father....if you haven’t noticed, FR is now majority anti-Catholic.....something has happened to it that is NOT good.
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