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To: CpnHook; CynicalBear; Elsie; metmom
As you supplied;

Did you extract those quotes of a grab-bag of opinion (isolated from the contexts from which they were found) from the pages of that book yourself, or did you copy those from some RC apologetics page which had themselves extracted those portions?

You do realize that there was no sense in the earliest centuries of the Church, that Peter's own "primacy" as being first among Apostles, to whatever degree or extent, was first --- that Peter was earthly, visible head of the Church over and above all others, and second, that this primacy as it were, however it was seen to be, was an inheritable position available only to whomever it was that in later times became the bishop of the Churchat Rome?

It would be interesting to see what all of those whom were selectively quoted (in what you brought from the cherry-picking, Roman Catholic pom-pom waving book Jesus,Peter and the Keys) would have to say about the aspects of historical reality, prior to when Rome could not be dissuaded from the notion that it alone "held the keys" as it were.

Meanwhile, as for Patristic mentions of this same issue, there is the extensive (and extensively footnoted);

From there it can be seen that; seeing Peter, the man himself as "the rock" was not universal view among the early Church, and that when he was seen as the rock, much as Augustine put it, Rocky, from the Rock (which Rock is Christ) is not minus or apart from the revelation and the following confession, but still focused upon the confession also -=- according to Augustine, in the first paragraph sourced from that man, at the [immediately above] link.

There are a great many other patristic authors also, but among the earliest ones, there are non that I know of which equate Peter's own role in the early Church to be inheritable only by whomever happened to become bishop of (the city of) Rome, even as that bishop would be among those whom was representative of the wider, universal Church, whom in the first centuries, all bishops were seen as being successor to Peter, along with being successor to all of the rest of the Apostles, receiving among themselves all which had been established from Apostolic sources.

Webster also offers further commentary and discussion, including mentions of the book which you yourself quoted from. Though Webster does not address the writers, and those particular quotes from them which are in the note to which I here give reply, he does go into detail for many of the patristic authors, and also supplies extensive quotations from notable Roman Catholic historians (more noteworthy than the authors which you've brought and cited selected extract from) which support views differing from the usual RC apolgetic as to Petrine primacy equating with an unspoken Papal Supremacy belonging solely to 'Rome'.

From

The Church Fathers' Interpretation of the Rock of Matthew 16:18

An Historical Refutation of the Claims of Roman Catholicism

Includes a Critique of [the book] Jesus, Peter and the Keys, By William Webster

TERTULLIAN (A.D. 155/160—240/250) Tertullian was born in Carthage in North Africa and practiced law before his conversion to Christianity ca. A.D. 193. As a Christian he was a prolific writer and has been called the ‘Father of Latin Christianity’. He was most likely a layman and his writings were widely read. He had a great influence upon the Church fathers of subsequent generations, especially Cyprian. He is the first of the Western fathers to comment on Matthew 16. In one of his writings Tertullian identifies the rock with the person of Peter on which the Church would be built:

Though Tertullian states that Peter is the rock he does not mean it in a pro–papal sense. We know this because of other comments he has made. But if we isolate this one passage it would be easy to read a pro–Roman interpretation into it. However, in other comments on Matthew 16:18–19, Tertullian explains what he means when he says that Peter is the rock on which the Church would be built: When Tertullian says that Peter is the rock and the Church is built upon him he means that the Church is built through him as he preaches the gospel. This preaching is how Tertullian explains the meaning of the keys. They are the declarative authority for the offer of forgiveness of sins through the preaching of the gospel. If men respond to the message they are loosed from their sins. If they reject it they remain bound in their sins. In the words just preceding this quote Tertullian explicitly denies that this promise can apply to anyone but Peter and therefore he does not in any way see a Petrine primacy in this verse with successors in the bishops of Rome. The patristic scholar, Karlfried Froehlich, states that even though Tertullian teaches that Peter is the rock he does not mean this in the same sense as the Roman Catholic Church: It is a common practice of Roman Catholic apologists to omit part of the quotation given above by Tertullian in order to make it appear that he is a proponent of papal primacy. A prime example off this is found in a recently released Roman Catholic defense of the papacy entitled Jesus, Peter and the Keys. The authors give the following partial citation from Tertullian: I now inquire into your opinion, to see whence you usurp this right for the Church. Do you presume, because the Lord said to Peter, ‘On this rock I will build my Church, I have given you the keys of the kingdom of heaven’ [Matt. 16:1819a] or ‘whatever you shall have bound or loosed on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven’ [Matt. 16:19b] that the power of binding and loosing has thereby been handed on to you, that is, to every church akin to Peter? What kind of man are you, subverting and changing what was the manifest intent of the Lord when he conferred this personally upon Peter? On you, he says, I will build my Church; and I will give to you the keys, not to the Church; and whatever you shall have bound or you shall have loosed, not what they shall have bound or they shall have loosed (Scott Butler, Norman Dahlgren, David Hess, Jesus, Peter and the Keys (Santa Barbara: Queenship, 1996), pp. 216-217). When comparing this citation with the one given above it is clear that these authors have left out the last half of the quotation. The part of the quotation that is omitted defines what Tertullian means by the statement that Christ built his Church on Peter and invested him with authority. Again, what he means by these words is that Christ built his church on Peter by building it through him as he preached the gospel. This is a meaning that is clearly contrary to the Roman Catholic perspective. To omit this is to distort the teaching of Tertullian and to give the impression that he taught something he did not teach. So, though Tertullian states that Peter is the rock, he does not mean this in the same way the Roman Catholic Church does. Peter is the rock because he is the one given the privilege of being the first to open the kingdom of God to men. This is similar to the view expressed by Maximus of Tours when he says: ‘For he is called a rock because he was the first to lay the foundations of the faith among the nations' (Ancient Christian Writers (New York: Newman, 1989), The Sermons of St. Maximus of Turin, Sermon 77.1, p. 187). Not only do we see a clear denial of any belief in a papal primacy in Tertullian’s exegesis of Matthew 16, but such a denial is also seen from his practice. In his later years Tertullian separated himself from the Catholic Church to become a Montanist. He clearly did not hold to the view espoused by Vatican I that communion with the Bishop of Rome was the ultimate criterion of orthodoxy and of inclusiveness in the Church of God. There is much more at the links, far too much to present the entire offerings, but it does supply sufficient reply to the likes of the rah-rah-, go team go cheer-leading justifications for the office of papacy as that developed into being within Rome itself, clearly demonstrating that the whole mess is something of fraud that has been foisted upon the Church.

Webster demonstrates by comparisons, and delving into wider contexts for patristic fathers how the Romish cherry-picking in support for "papacy" goes -- flatly busting them, catching them in the act so to speak, including such presenters of the selectively cherry-picked assemblages of quotations in support of popish pablum as indulged in by Scott Butler, Norman Dahlgren, and David Hess.

You may as well wipe any smirk off your face which you may have had when you wrote that, for the questions you pose, have already be asked and answered


391 posted on 02/16/2015 11:43:49 AM PST by BlueDragon (the weather is always goldilocks perfect, on freeper island)
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To: BlueDragon
Did you extract those quotes of a grab-bag of opinion (isolated from the contexts from which they were found) from the pages of that book yourself, or did you copy those from some RC apologetics page which had themselves extracted those portions?

I own a copy of the book. Though I admit to very much disliking rote typing, so a good portion of that I copied from someone who had already done the typing.

Nothing is out of context. What sort of context are you possibly suggesting would alter this sort of statement:

Jesus now sums up Peter's significance in a name, Peter . . . It describes not so much Peter's character (he did not prove to be 'rock-like' in terms of stability or reliability), but his function, as the foundation-stone of Jesus' church. The feminine word for 'rock', 'petra', is necessarily changed to the masculine 'petros' (stone) to give a man's name, but the word-play is unmistakable (and in Aramaic would be even more so, as the same form 'kepha' would occur in both places).

The author is doing a straight-forward analysis of the pertinent verses. The same is true of most of the other quotes I gave.

It would be interesting to see what all of those whom were selectively quoted (in what you brought from the cherry-picking, Roman Catholic pom-pom waving book Jesus,Peter and the Keys) would have to say about the aspects of historical reality, prior to when Rome could not be dissuaded from the notion that it alone "held the keys" as it were.

Since what I quoted were all contemporary Protestant sources (well, one Anglican, so quasi-Protestant) who for the most part are simply examining Matt: 16:18 from a linguistic, syntactical and contextual perspective, I doubt their views would much be changed by historical points.

From there it can be seen that; seeing Peter, the man himself as "the rock" was not universal view among the early Church,

But "Peter, the man himself" is an overly narrow, strawman read on the Catholic view. Part of the limitation of Webster's documentation is that he's focused simply on that one verse, which is a key part of Patristic (and present Catholic) ecclesiology, but by no means the totality of it.

With Webster (and if not Webster himself, then some reading through what he assembles) there is a tendency to read the Patristic passages with at least two Protestant-oriented lens on. 1) viewing things in "either/or" terms and 2) reading "Peter's faith" or "the faith of the Church" in the narrow sense of acceptance of Jesus Christ, rather than in the more Catholic/confessional sense of "the totality of the truth passed on by the Church founded by Jesus Christ."

So when a Patristic statement indicates that "rock" is "Peter's faith" the negative inference of "not Peter" seems to be drawn. But it doesn't necessarily mean that. Without much question, the Patristic writers held to a view of the indefectibility of the Church, the church as "pillar and foundation of truth." Peter in Matt. 16;18 is sometimes stated to be a figure for the entire church. But Peter himself is most certainly part of that teaching church, against which the gates of hell shall not prevail.

There are a great many other patristic authors also, but among the earliest ones, there are non that I know of which equate Peter's own role in the early Church to be inheritable only by whomever happened to become bishop of (the city of) Rome.

I quoted Ireneaus earlier, who points out the line of succession from Peter to Clement, noting that Clement wrote to address a situation going on in the church at Corinth. There's only about writing before him of whom we have records. Ignatius speaks of the church at Roman as "presiding" in love. The roots of primacy are there.

Though Webster does not address the writers, and those particular quotes from them which are in the note to which I here give reply

Right. My post was all about contemporary Protestant commentators. Your reply was all about Patristics and the link to Webster's patristic quotations. It seems you saw hit the "auto reply" button here a bit prematurely. :)

404 posted on 02/16/2015 3:22:57 PM PST by CpnHook
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