>>And where does it say in Scripture that something needs to be in Scripture in order to be believed?<<
Galatians 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God's curse!
Unless you can show any other documented proof of what the apostles taught we are left with scripture alone.
>>Beyond that, see my comment at #730, re: the role of the Church.<<
Anybody with a lick of sense knows that foundations and pillars don't build or create. The Catholic Church putting out that "pillar and foundation" quote as some type of licenses to create truth other than found in scripture is imbecilic.
>>There's an obvious distinction between the "Churches" mentioned in Revelation and in the writings of St. Paul<<
First of all the word "church" and the concept of it as put forth today doesn't exist in the New Testament. The word used is ekklesia and Matthew 18:17 was talking about the local ekklesia of believers allowing someone persisting in sin to meet with that group. Once again the Catholic Church twisting that verse to mean something it doesn't is creating a false "church".
>>"He who endures to the end will be saved." (Matthew 10:22, repeated verbatim in Matthew 24:13) That looks pretty solid to me.<<
It sure does. And the Holy Spirit guarantee to us who know His voice will never be lost by the Father as He promised.
>>What's stopping me from freely choosing to throw it away?<<
A person with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit wouldn't even think to make that statement. Your "snatching away" comment is purely lacking in knowledge. It's Satan who does the "snatching away" and we have the promise of God that the possibility of that happening to those He has chosen isn't feasible.
>>But our acceptance of it is NOT irrevocable; we can still fall away (cf. 1 Corinthians 10:12, Hebrews 3:12, Hebrews 6:4-6, etc.)<<
1 Corinthians 10:12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall. 13No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.
I don't see much faith in God's abilities in your statements paladinan.
Hebrews 3:12 is under the heading "dangers of unbelief". Paul was talking about those who didn't believe the gospel. He's talking about encouraging others to believe rather than remain in unbelief.
>>We can trust His free offer, absolutely. It's the other side of the equation (i.e. OUR side, where we can use our free will to reject Him in favor of lesser things) that isn't so trustworthy.<<
Once again, no one with the indwelling Holy Spirit would even think to make a comment like that. If you think there is a possibility that you would "reject Him" it may be an indication that some serious private prayer asking for the closeness of the Holy Spirit is in order.
[paladinan]
And where does it say in Scripture that something needs to be in Scripture in order to be believed?
[CynicalBear]
Galatians 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God's curse!
All right. Now, you need to cover at least two more things:
1) Prove, from Scripture alone, that "the Gospel preached by St. Paul" is completely contained within the 66-book Protestant Bible, and never exceeds it.
2) Prove that the Catholic Church exceeds the Gospel as preached by St. Paul (and he preached both in writing and orally--see 2 Thessalonians 2:15, etc.).
Your argument assumes both of these points... so you'll need to prove them, in order to get any traction.
Unless you can show any other documented proof of what the apostles taught we are left with scripture alone.
Er... and that "documentation" would need to be in the 66-book Protestant Bible, right? What other "documentation" would you take as authoritative?
Anybody with a lick of sense knows that foundations and pillars don't build or create.
The insinuation about "sense" aside, I agree. Were you assuming that I thought otherwise?
The Catholic Church putting out that "pillar and foundation" quote as some type of licenses to create truth other than found in scripture is imbecilic.
Forgive me for volleying your comment back at you, but: philosophies which claim that the Catholic Church has ever "created truth" of any sort, or that She has license to do so, could certainly be called imbecilic. Did you not read
my reply to this claim, earlier?
First of all the word "church" and the concept of it as put forth today doesn't exist in the New Testament.
Given that you've not specified what YOU mean by "church", in that statement of yours, I can't reply to this, yet. Care to elaborate? And after that, can you prove your assertion from Scripture alone?
The word used is ekklesia and Matthew 18:17 was talking about the local ekklesia of believers allowing someone persisting in sin to meet with that group.
All right: I now know your opinion. Now, please prove it true, using Scripture alone. Any attempts to say, "this word/passage of Scripture really MEANS [x]" is interpretation (by definition)... which "sola SCriptura" is powerless to do.
Once again the Catholic Church twisting that verse to mean something it doesn't is creating a false "church".
Yes, you've mentioned your opinion on that point, repeatedly; but you're on to PROVE that point (keeping to your own standards, including "sola Scriptura"), if you want anyone else to give it weight.
[paladinan]
"He who endures to the end will be saved." (Matthew 10:22, repeated verbatim in Matthew 24:13) That looks pretty solid to me.
[CynicalBear]
It sure does. And the Holy Spirit guarantee to us who know His voice will never be lost by the Father as He promised.
Your answer begs at least two questions:
(1) How do you decide who "knows His voice" (as opposed to a counterfeit)? I've known plenty of Pentecostals who were convinced that the "Holy Spirit" was telling them to do some rather nutty things! And on that point: how would you prove that even YOU "know the Holy Spirit's voice", and prove it from Scripture alone?
(2) "Never be lost by the Father" is not what the Scripture says. Look again. So... how do you prove that your extrapolation/interpretation is RIGHT, using "sola Scriptura"?
[paladinan]
What's stopping me from freely choosing to throw it away?
[CynicalBear]
A person with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit wouldn't even think to make that statement.
Oh, come now! This is a "special pleading" fallacy (e.g. "if only you were enlightened, you would know that I'm right; your vision is clouded, that's all!"), it proves nothing other than your personal feelings (which I could guess, anyway), and it's just plain silly.
Your "snatching away" comment is purely lacking in knowledge.
Mm-hmm. Logical proofs impress me far more than do forceful declarations of personal opinion, FRiend.
It's Satan who does the "snatching away" and we have the promise of God that the possibility of that happening to those He has chosen isn't feasible.
The only way this could possibly make sense is if you think we (as Christians) have no free will at all! You seriously think that the only way to lose Heaven is for Satan to "snatch" us away against our will? You don't think it's possible to sin? I'm asking, here.
[paladinan]
But our acceptance of it is NOT irrevocable; we can still fall away (cf. 1 Corinthians 10:12, Hebrews 3:12, Hebrews 6:4-6, etc.)
[CynicalBear]
1 Corinthians 10:12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall. 13No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.
I don't see much faith in God's abilities in your statements paladinan.
Let's see if your "seeing" is clear, in this instance. Are you assuming that St. Paul is warning against a nonexistent danger (i.e. falling), and that his audience--by definition--is incapable of falling? If you'll excuse me borrowing your figures of speech, again: I don't see much faith in St. Paul's ability to talk sense, in your statements, CynicalBear.
God certainly offers sufficient grace to escape/overcome any temptation; but what that means is that we
have no excuse if we freely choose to sin
anyway! Otherwise, St. Paul is talking nonsense... and given a choice between "St. Paul is talking nonsense (and the Holy Spirit included nonsense in the Scriptures)" vs. "CynicalBear is mistaken", I'll choose the latter (no offense).
Hebrews 3:12 is under the heading "dangers of unbelief". Paul was talking about those who didn't believe the gospel. He's talking about encouraging others to believe rather than remain in unbelief.
Hebrews 3:12 reads, "Take care, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God." First, the author calls them "brethren" (an odd term, for those who didn't yet believe); second, he warns that "lest there be an evil, unbelieving heart IN YOU" (the audience members), not in "someone among you who doesn't believe"; third, "fall away from the living God" means exactly that--to "fall away from the living God". One can't "fall away" without having BEEN THERE, in the first place. Otherwise, he would have used a phrase such as "leading you to STAY away from the living God". Doesn't that make much more sense?
[paladinan]
We can trust His free offer, absolutely. It's the other side of the equation (i.e. OUR side, where we can use our free will to reject Him in favor of lesser things) that isn't so trustworthy.
[CynicalBear]
Once again, no one with the indwelling Holy Spirit would even think to make a comment like that.
And once again, you're resorting to a dismissive fallacy known as "special pleading", and anyone could say that about anything, while proving nothing. You need to prove your ideas, not just assert them.
If you think there is a possibility that you would "reject Him" it may be an indication that some serious private prayer asking for the closeness of the Holy Spirit is in order.
Every last sin--no matter how small--is a rejection of God, by definition. Do you not believe that? Alternately: do you seriously believe that you are now (and that you will remain, to your dying moment) completely without sin? That would be quite a feat...