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To: redleghunter
[paladinan]
That’s all well and good... but it doesn’t give even a hint as to how specific books were accepted or rejected from the Canon of Scripture.

[redleghunter]
That premise would apply if Scriptures were not Divinely Inspired. It also shows the mindset you approach from. Man-made.


(?) I'm not sure you understand. Go back in time (in your imagination) to the point before even the Jewish Scriptures (what we call the OT) were compiled in one place and recognized as Scripture. The process was not neat and clean; there were spurious books claiming to be Scripture in almost every age (cf. some books claiming to be in the OT were 3 and 4 Maccabees, Jubilees, 1 Enoch, etc.; do a search for "Pseudepigrapha", and you'll find plenty; some books claiming to be in the NT were Shepherd of Hermas, Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Peter, etc.)

Now, consider this logically (without any emotional sentiment--however understandable--getting in the way): if the Bible isn't "settled" yet... i.e. if a definitive "table of contents" hadn't been decided yet... then one can't simply "consult the Scriptures" to see which books should be in the Scriptures! Don't you see? It'd be like asking a person who isn't yet conceived in his mother's womb about what name he would prefer to have! (I agree that it'd be a polite and sound thing to do, save for only one problem: it's logically impossible, since the person doesn't yet exist in order to ask him!)

Not only do none of the Biblical books name any specific books as "Scripture" (St. Peter refers to some of the writings of St. Paul as Scripture, but he never specifies *which ones* are Scripture... and if we weren't yet confident that 2 Peter is Scripture, ITSELF (you may be aware, from your biblical studies, that 2 Peter was rather hotly contested--see "Muratorian Fragment", and other topics, on that), then its "endorsement" would be worthless! (I assume you don't accept the Book of Mormon; so you wouldn't accept the NT simply because the Book of Mormon says they're true, right?)

Does that clarify? No, I have no desire to "disprove the Scriptures"; I merely point out (among other things) that the Scriptures are not meant to be used ALONE, and that they never make that claim for themselves. I (along with any faithful, well-informed Catholic) esteem all 73 books of the Bible as the true Written Word of God, inerrant and God-breathed, never fear.
234 posted on 02/12/2015 9:09:10 AM PST by paladinan (Rule #1: There is a God. Rule #2: It isn't you.)
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To: paladinan; RnMomof7; daniel1212; metmom; boatbums; Elsie
Does that clarify? No, I have no desire to "disprove the Scriptures"; I merely point out (among other things) that the Scriptures are not meant to be used ALONE, and that they never make that claim for themselves.

I understand your approach now.

Genesis 3:

Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?”

2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’”

4 Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die.

And to which the above line of reasoning, and your own, Jesus answered:

Matthew 4:

“It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’”

“It is written again, ‘You shall not tempt the Lord your God.’”

“Away with you, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve.’”

And yet, if these Scriptures required men 'to sort them out'; then after sorting such where did the Roman See gain its authority? If you cast the very 'compiling' of Scriptures in a shady man-made corner, then even the Scriptures Rome claims as its authority are in question.

Oh..I see now that is why we have to listen to the Pope and the self proclaimed magesterium. Because without an infallible source to make the supposed infallible source infallible makes it quite fallible.

Maybe you now see why this former Roman Catholic sees such self proclaimed 'authority' quite an exercise in circular reasoning.

237 posted on 02/12/2015 9:36:46 AM PST by redleghunter (Your faith has saved you. Go in peace. (Luke 7:50))
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To: paladinan; redleghunter; RnMomof7
Now, consider this logically (without any emotional sentiment--however understandable--getting in the way): if the Bible isn't "settled" yet... i.e. if a definitive "table of contents" hadn't been decided yet... then one can't simply "consult the Scriptures" to see which books should be in the Scriptures! Don't you see?

Now, consider this logically (without any emotional sentiment--however understandable--getting in the way), according to your logic if souls were able to search/consult the Scriptures - which they abundantly did in the NT - in then a definitive "table of contents" must have been decided.

none of the Biblical books name any specific books as "Scripture"

Regardless, we know where the quotations affirmed as being Scripture came from, yet your argument here suffers from another problem, for as is typical of RCs regarding SS, it relies upon a straw man of SS, one that presumes explicit statements or teaching is required under SS.

However, as Westminster itself affirms,

“all things in Scripture are not alike plain in themselves, nor alike clear unto all, what is necessary is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture.

And that

“there are some circumstances concerning the worship of God, and the government of the Church, common to human actions and societies, which are to be ordered by the light of nature and Christian prudence, according to the general rules of the Word, which are always to be observed.”

And also,

“It belongeth to synods and councils [not as assuredly infallible but as a help in grace], ministerially, to determine controversies of faith, and cases of conscience; to set down rules and directions for the better ordering of the public worship of God, and government of his Church; to receive complaints in cases of maladministration, and authoritatively to determine the same: which decrees and determinations, if consonant to the Word of God, are to be received with reverence and submission, not only for their agreement with the Word, but also for the power whereby they are made, as being an ordinance of God, appointed thereunto in his Word. (WESTMINSTER, cp. 1, VI. VII; Cp. XXXI, ` )

And as said, as we clearly men (without an infallible magisterium) correctly discerning both men and writings as being of God - essentially due to their distinctive Heavenly qualities and attestation - and thus a canon being established, if not yet complete (and not universally then or now), then Scripture clearly provides for more books being added, and finally for a settled complete canon.

I merely point out (among other things) that the Scriptures are not meant to be used ALONE, and that they never make that claim for themselves.

Indeed, as even reason and discernment is needed, and teachers, etc., but as a source of Truth, Scripture alone is the supreme sufficient (in its formal and material aspects) standard for Truth and Faith as the wholly inspired word of God. Which the oral preaching of the NT was subject to testing by. And as said in a more extensive reply on this subject,

• 1. What other transcendent objective, comprehensive body of revelation is wholly inspired of God? Infallible decrees? No, not even according to Rome, which only hold these utterances - and not even the reasoning or arguments behind them - are protected from error. But which does not the anointed power of the word of God, which is alive "and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." (Hebrews 4:12)

Are the words of the church which express Tradition wholly inspired of God? No, Catholic teaching says these are not either. She does claim oral (as oral) tradition is, however that exists in a nebulous amorphous form, the authenticity of which rests upon the premise of the perpetual magisterial infallibility of Rome, which is the alternative Staples must establish but only assumes is true.

• 2. What body of Truth is said to instrumentally be used for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, and to make one "perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works? That the man of God can be complete because he has available to him this body of Truth? (2Tim. 3:15,17)

• 3. What body of Truth did the Lord establish His Truth claims by, and specifically open the minds of the disciples to? (Lk. 24:44,45) It was not Cath. tradition.

Thus we see that Scripture has a unique status and is uniquely qualified to be the supreme standard for Truth and obedience, and being the final court of appeal on all doctrinal and moral matters, and indeed, as written, it manifestly became that standard, which oral preaching depended on.

507 posted on 02/13/2015 7:18:35 PM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: paladinan
Not only do none of the Biblical books name any specific books as "Scripture" (St. Peter refers to some of the writings of St. Paul as Scripture, but he never specifies *which ones* are Scripture... and if we weren't yet confident that 2 Peter is Scripture, ITSELF (you may be aware, from your biblical studies, that 2 Peter was rather hotly contested--see "Muratorian Fragment", and other topics, on that), then its "endorsement" would be worthless!

Jesus referred to the Law and the Prophets as Scripture and quoted from some of them as such.

Peter called Paul's writings *Scripture* and since he didn't specify which ones, then there's no reason to not accept what we have of his as Scripture.

That settles most of what we accept as Scripture.

As for the NT, the RCC accepts the same books as non-Catholics as Scripture so they have no cause for criticism there.

Here's a link to answering that question.

Addressing the object that The Bible isn't the Word of God. It contains the Word of God.

https://carm.org/bible-isnt-word-god-it-contains-word-god

537 posted on 02/14/2015 4:55:57 AM PST by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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