Mass as nourishment, not as obligation

OSV ^ | February 5, 2015 | Melinda Selmys

[Elsie]

Mocking for Jesus?

Philippians 2:5

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:  

---

 

Matthew 15:16
   "Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them.

Matthew 23

 

  1.  Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples:
  2.  "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.
  3.  So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.
  4.  They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
  5.  "Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries  wide and the tassels on their garments long;
  6.  they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues;
  7.  they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them `Rabbi.'
  8.  "But you are not to be called `Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers.
  9.  And do not call anyone on earth `father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.
 10.  Nor are you to be called `teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ.
 11.  The greatest among you will be your servant.
 12.  For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
 13.  "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. 
 14.  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. 
 15.   "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are. 
 16.  "Woe to you, blind guides! You say, `If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.'
 17.  You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred?
 18.  You also say, `If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.'
 19.  You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred?
 20.  Therefore, he who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it.
 21.  And he who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it.
 22.  And he who swears by heaven swears by God's throne and by the one who sits on it.
 23.  "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.
 24.  You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
 25.  "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.
 26.  Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
 27.  "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites!  You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean.
 28.  In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
 29.  "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous.
 30.  And you say, `If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.'
 31.  So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets.
 32.  Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!
 33.  "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?
 34.  Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.
 35.  And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
 36.  I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.
 37.  "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.
 38.  Look, your house is left to you desolate.
 39.  For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, `Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.' "

 

Mark 7:26-27
 26.  The woman was a Greek, born in Syrian Phoenicia. She begged Jesus to drive the demon out of her daughter.
 27.  "First let the children eat all they want," he told her, "for it is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."

 

---

And St. Paul chimes in...

---

Galatians 5:12
   As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

 

[papertyger]

Great....another Scriptural Tourette’s victim.

[Elsie]

That’s an, shall we say, INTERESTING view of the bible.

[BlueDragon]

I accept your testimony.

It does seem to me that more than few here did not well enough discern the spirit in which you wrote, even previous to that comment to which I here give reply.

All in all, generally + 1, if that makes any sense, without myself going into close detail...

I do appreciate your own efforts towards reasonableness.

[BlueDragon]

Was individual interpretation of Scripture practiced by the early Christians or the Jews? Again, “NO”

Who told you that nonsense? The Jews most certainly would engage in theological discourse, even while having read from Scripture (scrolls, actually) in the Temple (on Temple grounds).

It could be loosely referred to as Midrash, although that was not limited to verbal presentation. There was Targum also, much of which had arguably begun as oral Midrash, even at the time of Christ.

Jesus Himself opened the scrolls and read from them --- and then explained them. He first did so when he was (in human form) but a teenager. (do I really need to bring the scripture citations?)

Simple wiki intro for Midrash

In Judaism, the Midrash (/ˈmɪdrɑːʃ/;[1] Hebrew: מדרש‎; plural midrashim) is the body of exegesis of Torah texts along with homiletic stories as taught by Chazal (Rabbinical Jewish sages of the post-Temple era) that provide an intrinsic analysis to passages in the Tanakh.

Midrash is a method of interpreting biblical stories that goes beyond simple distillation of religious, legal, or moral teachings. It fills in gaps left in the biblical narrative regarding events and personalities that are only hinted at.[2].

The purpose of midrash was to resolve problems in the interpretation of difficult passages of the text of the Hebrew Bible, using Rabbinic principles of hermeneutics and philology to align them with the religious and ethical values of religious teachers.

I got as far further in your written rant, as this;

"...(Martin Luther), near the end of his life, was afraid that “any milkmaid who could read”..."

Source, please.

Where can that be found within Luther's own writings, or perhaps in some writing of a person close to him?

He may have said something of that nature, but even if so, would have been turning around somewhat backwards something attributed to having been said first by Wycliffe --- along the lines of "when I'm done [translating the Scriptures into English] plowboys will know more Scripture than you", which was supposedly said to a Roman Catholic priest. The same phrase has been attributed to Tyndale, also, but I've yet to find the expression directly from Luther, turned around as regret, expressed as such, particularly with this added "will start a denomination" portion

Being that there has long been something of a cottage industry of quote-mining from Luther, including there having been more than a few false attributions over the centuries since, made by Rome's defenders, it could be best to limit ourselves to that which can be well enough established, and leave the rest off to the side. Not that it matters all that much, for Luther was known even from his own era of being quick with speech, a bit hot-tempered (and who could entirely blame him for that?) even as he was said to also possess some degree of warmth and charm.

Calvin, writing of Luther in a letter to Henry Bullinger, starting partway down from where it is being [allegedly] quoted from;

"But I hope you will remember in the first place how great a man Luther is, and in how many excellent endowments he excels; with what fortitude and constancy, with what dexterity and efficacious learning, he has hitherto applied himself, both to overthrow the kingdom of Antichrist, and to spread the doctrine of salvation. It is a frequent saying with me that, if Luther should even call me a devil, my veneration for him is notwithstanding so great that I shall ever acknowledge him to be an illustrious servant of God, who, though he abounds in extraordinary virtues, yet labors under great imperfections. I wish he would endeavor to restrain the violence with which he boils over on all occasions; and that he would always direct the vehemence which is natural to him against the enemies of truth, and not brandish it also against the servants of the Lord. I should be glad if he took more pains in searching out his own defects. Flatterers have done him much harm, especially as he is by nature too much inclined to self-indulgence; but it is our duty, whilst we reprehend what is bad in him, to make due allowance for his excellent qualities.

"I beg therefore of you and your colleagues, in the first place to consider that you have to deal with a distinguished servant of Christ, to whom we are all much indebted; and in the next, that all you will obtain by a conflict will be to afford sport to the ungodly, and a triumph over ourselves as well as over the gospel; for if we indulge in mutual abuse, they will be but too ready to believe both sides."

[BlueDragon]

"...I’m simply stating my belief in defense of remarks, cartoons, graphics, against Catholicism."

The 'cartoons and graphics" are not necessarily against [Roman] Catholicism, but do often rationally enough apply to what particular interlocutors here have said, or postured themselves as being...

Is this not a forum on Catholic beliefs?

Perhaps that was a poor choice of words on your own part?

FreeRepublic itself, even the 'religion' sub-forum is not a forum dedicated to "Catholic beliefs", though those can be presented and discussed.

Rather than being a forum, this is a discussion thread, which was posted as an 'open' thread, wherein most anyone here a member can discuss or argue for or against deities, religious practices, and/or beliefs, etc.

[BlueDragon]

Why do all their loaded questions continually misfire?

Powder ain't dry enough?

Flash in the pan? Touch-hole plugged? Faulty flint, or no flint at all?

Bad primer? Broken firing pin?

EMPTY CHAMBER? click.

[BlueDragon]

Christ taught ONE truth. This cannot be denied.

As you understand that to be, that "one truth" is...?

How many words would it take?

More than a sentence or two?

How about a couple of pages?

No?

What is this "one" truth (according to you) that you keep talking about, yet never seem to narrow it down and actually say?

Please limit it to three paragraphs.

[CynicalBear]

>>My personal belief is if you reject the teachings of the Catholic Church, then you are rejecting Jesus Christ.<<

Scripture does NOT say "trust in the church with all your heart".

>>We need more love of one another and not hatred.<<

2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

[metmom]

Peter – rock

Matthew 16:18 - http://bible.cc/matthew/16-18.htm

Jesus said that Peter was *petros*(masculine) and that on this *petra*(feminine) He would build His church.

Greek: 4074 Pétros (a masculine noun) – properly, a stone (pebble), such as a small rock found along a pathway. 4074 /Pétros (”small stone”) then stands in contrast to 4073 /pétra (”cliff, boulder,” Abbott-Smith).

“4074 (Pétros) is an isolated rock and 4073 (pétra) is a cliff” (TDNT, 3, 100). “4074 (Pétros) always means a stone . . . such as a man may throw, . . . versus 4073 (pétra), a projecting rock, cliff” (S. Zodhiates, Dict).

4073 pétra (a feminine noun) – “a mass of connected rock,” which is distinct from 4074 (Pétros) which is “a detached stone or boulder” (A-S). 4073 (pétra) is a “solid or native rock, rising up through the earth” (Souter) – a huge mass of rock (a boulder), such as a projecting cliff.

4073 (petra) is “a projecting rock, cliff (feminine noun) . . . 4074 (petros, the masculine form) however is a stone . . . such as a man might throw” (S. Zodhiates, Dict).

It’s also a strange way to word the sentence that He would call Peter a rock and say that on this I will build my church instead of *on you* as would be grammatically correct in talking to a person.

There is no support from the original Greek that Peter was to be the rock on which Jesus said he would build His church. The nouns are not the same, one being masculine and the other being feminine. They denote different objects.

Also, here, Paul identifies who petra is, and that is Christ. This link takes you to the Greek.

http://biblehub.com/text/1_corinthians/10-4.htm

1 Corinthians 10:1-4 For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock (petra) that followed them, and the Rock (petra) was Christ.

http://biblehub.com/text/romans/9-33.htm

Romans 9:30-33 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, as it is written,“Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock (petra) of offense; and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”

http://biblehub.com/text/1_peter/2-8.htm

1 Peter 2:1-8 So put away all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander. Like newborn infants, long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up into salvation— if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is good.

As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For it stands in Scripture: “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious, and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”

So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe,

“The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,”

and

“A stone of stumbling, and a rock (petra) of offense.”

They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.

All occurrences of *petra* in the Greek.

http://biblehub.com/greek/strongs_4073.htm

[CynicalBear]

>>Why do all their loaded questions continually misfire?<<

Faulty primer. Bad ignition source.

[metmom]

My personal belief is if you reject the teachings of the Catholic Church, then you are rejecting Jesus Christ.

Now, that wouldn't be anything like your own personal interpretation, now would it?

Jesus said that too.

Oh He did, did he?

Could you provide the chapters and verses for that claim?

[metmom]

Great....another Scriptural Tourette’s victim.

Ya just gotta love Catholic's compassion and class......

[BlueDragon]

Faulty primer

That was the first thing that came to mind, although having a bit of fun with it from there, I added the other considerations.

As it came to mind initially, it was a .22 rimfire casing which lacked primer in one area of the inner rim.

Faulty primers it is.

At least we likely won't need face the rack, or the comfy chair, instead.

Now if the world could now encourage the most irritable of the muslims to take a chill-pill (take them by the dozens, whatever it takes) then maybe we'd have something, well, at least until the Chinese decide they want the Central Valley of California (for the food) and Las Vegas (for the glitz).

[BlueDragon]

Yeah, I saw that too.

Jesus said, huh?

By now, it may not be any particular papists' interpretation as much as it is what has been told to "them", but it is a private one of those still, as far as it has been stre-eeetched into becoming considered that Jesus said all of "that".

[RnMomof7]

That sounds like you are saved before your death. That seems to be the intrpretation that you are claiming.

I have been saved by the work of Christ.. His work is never in vain.

I can say with confidence I am saved now ... I am working out that salvation as God wills.. and on the day of my death I will stand Before Christ clothed in His righteousness .. not my own ...

Romans 8:16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

[Elsie]

Great....another Scriptural Tourette’s victim. Ya just gotta love Catholic's compassion and class...

 

 

[Elsie]

you're halfway there!!

[Elsie]

These attempt to wash away the Rock on which the Church was founded

What rock???

[ADSUM]

Could you provide the chapters and verses for that claim?

Why don’t you look it up? You don’t accept any teaching but your own personal opinion.

Oh it has been posted before.