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Book Review: The Protestant's Dilemma: A Review (Part Three): The Papacy
Beggers All Reformation Blogspot ^ | Jan.17, 2015 | james Swan

Posted on 02/01/2015 1:23:06 PM PST by RnMomof7

This is a continuation of my review of The Protestant’s Dilemma: How the Reformation’s Shocking Consequences Point to the Truth of Catholicism (San Diego: Catholic Answers Press, 2014, Kindle edition) by Rome's defender, Devin Rose. The book throughout presents caricatures of Protestant positions, illogical conclusions, shoddy documentation, assumes the truth of the Roman Catholic worldview without proving it, and demonstrates that the author did not apply his own criteria to his own position.

Section 2 of TPD  is entitled, "The Papacy." It's a short chapter, under 1000 words. The temptation in reviewing it is is to respond at a much greater length, but for the sake of the same brevity,  I'd like to focus on it as an example of assuming a Roman Catholic historical paradigm without proving it. Based on these unproven assumptions, TPD sets up another straw-man to knock down. If the papacy existed from the beginning, then logically for Protestants, "sometime between the first centuries of the Church and the Protestant Reformation in the 1500s, the papacy as an office must have become corrupted, and God revoked his authority from it." TPD says that "An unbiased examination of the historical evidence, coupled with Peter’s words in his first epistle, make an overwhelming case for the first bishop of Rome being Peter and the line continuing in unbroken succession," yet the book only provides a surface-level biased interpretation of the evidence. It offers no counter-evidence to its claims, nor does it appear to function with an understanding of the difference between an interpretation of the facts and the facts themselves.

The section begins boldly stating, "The Church had a pope, a visible head, from the beginning." TPD simply assumes there was a monarchical episcopacy functioning in Rome "all the way back" without proving it. In order for any of TPD's claims to be true in this section, this fact would have to have been established from the outset. It isn't. For instance, we see this glaring factual omission in TPD's treatment of 1 Clement: "Clement begins the letter by stating that he writes from the church in Rome, strengthening the claim that this line of bishops dwelled in Rome and was begun by Peter." The letter being referred to doesn't identity its author. Rather, the letter says it's from "The Church of God which sojourneth in Rome to the Church of God which sojourneth in Corinth." There is not any sort of historical consensus that there was a monarchical episopate functioning in Rome at the time this letter was penned. Rather, this letter serves just as well as evidence that the church of Rome was led by a body of presbyters [see: Lampe, Peter. From Paul to Valentinus: Christians at Rome in the First Two Centuries Trans., Michael Steinhauser Ed., Marshall G. Johnson (Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 2003].

TPD assumes that in 1 Peter 5:13 "Babylon" means "Rome," concluding Peter wrote from Rome, therefore he established the Roman church. Granted, TPD says "the Bible does not explicitly say 'Peter was the bishop of Rome.'" Rather for TPD, 1 Peter 5:13 is only "biblical evidence for the claim." But It's debatable whether or not "Babylon" means "Rome." 1 Peter 5:13 is the only shred of Biblical inferring evidence that TPD has proving Peter was the first pope of the Roman Catholic Church. The historical information given by Luke documents Peter’s ministry in Palestine and Syria. When Paul wrote to the Roman Church, there is not even a hint or allusion to Peter being its bishop. Similarly in the epistles written by Paul from Rome, any information linking Peter to Rome is absent. Here's TDP's Peter: the visible head of the Roman Catholic Church, with only one word of biblical support to prove it: the code word "Babylon." I'm reminded of Adam Clarke's old comment, "It's true that all the ancient ecclesiastical writers have ascribed to the word Babylon a mystical meaning; for though the Greek and Latin fathers commonly understood Rome, yet the Syriac and Arabic writers understood it literally, as denoting a town in the east; and if we are to be guided by opinion, an oriental writer is surely as good authority, on the present question, as a European."

TPD simply assumes Peter founded the church in Rome because he went there. On the one hand it presents evidence to prove "Peter was in Rome and established a church," and then a paragraph later states "Irenaeus spoke of the church in Rome founded by the apostles Peter and Paul." Which is it? I'll assume Mr. Rose will claim both are true.  Whichever it is, the historical waters are quite murky for Rome's defenders in regard to Peter's physical presence in Rome. One tradition posits that Peter and Paul established the Roman Church in the early 40’s. Peter is said to have remained in Rome for twenty-five years, preaching the Gospel, and eventually writing the epistles of 1 and 2 Peter. Some versions of this twenty-five year period include Peter’s travels, with Rome serving as his “home base” when he wasn't on missionary trips or attending church councils. Other versions have Peter going to Rome shortly after the Jerusalem council in 49 AD, and then returning to Rome just prior to 60 AD. Yet another version has Peter going to Rome one time only: towards the end of life during Nero’s reign. It depends on which defender of Rome one is dealing with as to which version is utilized. Catholic Answers posits that "if Peter never made it to the capital, he still could have been the first pope, since one of his successors could have been the first holder of that office to settle in Rome." On the other hand, the Catholic Encyclopedia sees it as essential for Peter to be in Rome at some point: "The essential fact is that Peter died at Rome: this constitutes the historical foundation of the claim of the Bishops of Rome to the Apostolic Primacy of Peter." Yet for TPD, the reader is to trust that Mr. Rose is presenting an unbiased look at the facts. Some Protestants have looked at the same facts and have concluded that Peter may not have gone to Rome at all. Perhaps what Mr. Rose should have sought to provide is a fair accounting of differing interpretations rather than his own biased conclusions.

Addendum
TPD states, "we know the names and approximate dates of all of the popes, all the way back to the first century."

The Problem of the Anti-Popes.
Another riddle of Roman Catholicism is the scandalous specter of having more than one infallible pope at the same time—a pope and an anti-pope. The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church says “there have been about thirty-five anti-popes in the history of the Church.” How can there be two infallible and opposing popes at the same time? Which is the true pope? Since there is no infallible list of popes or even an infallible way to determine who is the infallible pope, the system has a serious logical problem. Further, this difficulty has had several actual historical manifestations which bring into focus the whole question of an infallible pope.  Geisler, N. L., and MacKenzie, R. E. (1995). Roman Catholics and Evangelicals: agreements and differences (p. 217). Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian; Other Christian
KEYWORDS: apologetics; catholic; protestant
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To: caww

Yep


41 posted on 02/02/2015 7:44:53 AM PST by RnMomof7 (Ga 4:16)
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To: Mark17
It seemed to me at least, that many in my cult, were somewhat self satisfied, that somewhere along the way, it would turn out ok for their immortal souls.

Many of the Catholics I talk to are not a lot different than atheists...They have no interest in talking about anything Jesus...Bible was out of the question...And they don't seem to know enough about their own religion to even discuss it...I'd say those here on FR are the exception to the rule...

In fact, it's been interesting to watch over the years how some of the FR Catholics seem to have bloomed in their apologetics (that being they are posting more red links to something Catholic)...

I talked to a Catholic I had worked with for a number of years and when I talked to him about his salvation, his response was, 'I have been an usher in the Catholic church for over 20 years'...Guess he was home free, or so he thought...

42 posted on 02/02/2015 7:51:13 AM PST by Iscool
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To: caww; CynicalBear; metmom; boatbums; Danielle

.
The cover of that Qur’an says “Holy Qur’an,” and it truly is holy.

Holy means “set apart,” and it absolutely is set apart from Yehova’s truth that we find in his word.

Too bad Franky boy doesn’t respect the word of the one true God as much as he does the pretenders’ (including his own cult’s)
.


43 posted on 02/02/2015 8:11:12 AM PST by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: daniel1212; RnMomof7; metmom; boatbums; caww; presently no screen name; redleghunter; ...

.
>> “Notable statement.” <<

.
Especially in view of how Yeshua mocked the method of selection the apostles foolishly dabbled in, as recorded in Acts 1, and the Roman cult frequently copied, by appointing Paul as his 12th apostle.

.


44 posted on 02/02/2015 8:20:16 AM PST by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: Iscool
Many of the Catholics I talk to are not a lot different than atheists...They have no interest in talking about anything Jesus...Bible was out of the question...And they don't seem to know enough about their own religion to even discuss it...I'd say those here on FR are the exception to the rule...

I have RC family...once I was driving somewhere and I had Christian radio on and there was a teacher on ...the family member got VERY angry and turned off my radio ...and asked me "what do you get out of the S***??? "...

Catholicism is actually more like eastern mysticism ...They look for magic to make them "grow" more Christ like..

Did you know that cannibals believe that they eat someone that they get of the traits and abilities of the one they eat?

That is how Catholics see eating the "REAL BODY " of Christ ...they do not need something like scripture to know Christ better

45 posted on 02/02/2015 8:50:34 AM PST by RnMomof7 (Ga 4:16)
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To: Mark17
Well, to be perfectly honest, I don't know for sure, but I will try. I think many are very fearful of their religion. When they have been told a million times, that salvation is in a church, they are scared to death to look anywhere else. Pride is also part of it, and blindness, really is, quite simply, a mystery. It is possible, that each individual has different reasons, but those might be some of them. It is very difficult to explain.

They have not been regenerated by the Holy Spirit.
46 posted on 02/02/2015 9:45:28 AM PST by Old Yeller (Civil rights are for civilized people.)
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To: caww; daniel1212
Interesting...but I hardly think that would make any difference to how catholics see their Pope. They seem to be quite blind to the obvious most everyone else can see but them.

Could it be because to admit this deception was perpetrated by their own historians they would have to question what other things they are deceived about?

47 posted on 02/02/2015 12:21:38 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: caww

"And here is where allah says we must kill all the infidels."

48 posted on 02/02/2015 12:55:56 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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Comment #49 Removed by Moderator

To: boatbums

...”Could it be because to admit this deception was perpetrated by their own historians they would have to question what other things they are deceived about?”......

Of course.... and the leadership itself perpetuates pride and arrogance so these get in the way of truth for the membership.

It’s disturbing they rely on mostly catholic information instead of seeking truth...which of course will reinforce catholic teachings...so the rope just tightens.

There was a time where I was questioning “who” was right and who was ‘almost’ right. Soon after becoming a Christain.....I remembered that it was Gods Word that brought me to him and so pulled away from attending churches and let God show me....for several weeks I read a great deal and this with the Lord. Remarkably the full truth was obvious.

I wish catholics would do that just for a few weeks and approach God’s word as if they only know Him and desire what He wants.


50 posted on 02/02/2015 2:41:15 PM PST by caww
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Comment #51 Removed by Moderator

Comment #52 Removed by Moderator

To: Mark17

...” The only thing I asked, was, what took you so long to get here?”.....

You.

You answered your own question ...” I just wanted to know the truth”.

..and that is what God saw in you...that desire for truth...for Him.


53 posted on 02/02/2015 3:23:52 PM PST by caww
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To: caww

.
Holy only means set apart.

I know that the catholics like to add special mystical meaning to it, but in the end, its all there is to it.

The Quer’an is widely set apart from the truth of God.

.


54 posted on 02/02/2015 3:48:52 PM PST by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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