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Book Review: The Protestant's Dilemma: A Review (Part Three): The Papacy
Beggers All Reformation Blogspot ^ | Jan.17, 2015 | james Swan

Posted on 02/01/2015 1:23:06 PM PST by RnMomof7

This is a continuation of my review of The Protestant’s Dilemma: How the Reformation’s Shocking Consequences Point to the Truth of Catholicism (San Diego: Catholic Answers Press, 2014, Kindle edition) by Rome's defender, Devin Rose. The book throughout presents caricatures of Protestant positions, illogical conclusions, shoddy documentation, assumes the truth of the Roman Catholic worldview without proving it, and demonstrates that the author did not apply his own criteria to his own position.

Section 2 of TPD  is entitled, "The Papacy." It's a short chapter, under 1000 words. The temptation in reviewing it is is to respond at a much greater length, but for the sake of the same brevity,  I'd like to focus on it as an example of assuming a Roman Catholic historical paradigm without proving it. Based on these unproven assumptions, TPD sets up another straw-man to knock down. If the papacy existed from the beginning, then logically for Protestants, "sometime between the first centuries of the Church and the Protestant Reformation in the 1500s, the papacy as an office must have become corrupted, and God revoked his authority from it." TPD says that "An unbiased examination of the historical evidence, coupled with Peter’s words in his first epistle, make an overwhelming case for the first bishop of Rome being Peter and the line continuing in unbroken succession," yet the book only provides a surface-level biased interpretation of the evidence. It offers no counter-evidence to its claims, nor does it appear to function with an understanding of the difference between an interpretation of the facts and the facts themselves.

The section begins boldly stating, "The Church had a pope, a visible head, from the beginning." TPD simply assumes there was a monarchical episcopacy functioning in Rome "all the way back" without proving it. In order for any of TPD's claims to be true in this section, this fact would have to have been established from the outset. It isn't. For instance, we see this glaring factual omission in TPD's treatment of 1 Clement: "Clement begins the letter by stating that he writes from the church in Rome, strengthening the claim that this line of bishops dwelled in Rome and was begun by Peter." The letter being referred to doesn't identity its author. Rather, the letter says it's from "The Church of God which sojourneth in Rome to the Church of God which sojourneth in Corinth." There is not any sort of historical consensus that there was a monarchical episopate functioning in Rome at the time this letter was penned. Rather, this letter serves just as well as evidence that the church of Rome was led by a body of presbyters [see: Lampe, Peter. From Paul to Valentinus: Christians at Rome in the First Two Centuries Trans., Michael Steinhauser Ed., Marshall G. Johnson (Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 2003].

TPD assumes that in 1 Peter 5:13 "Babylon" means "Rome," concluding Peter wrote from Rome, therefore he established the Roman church. Granted, TPD says "the Bible does not explicitly say 'Peter was the bishop of Rome.'" Rather for TPD, 1 Peter 5:13 is only "biblical evidence for the claim." But It's debatable whether or not "Babylon" means "Rome." 1 Peter 5:13 is the only shred of Biblical inferring evidence that TPD has proving Peter was the first pope of the Roman Catholic Church. The historical information given by Luke documents Peter’s ministry in Palestine and Syria. When Paul wrote to the Roman Church, there is not even a hint or allusion to Peter being its bishop. Similarly in the epistles written by Paul from Rome, any information linking Peter to Rome is absent. Here's TDP's Peter: the visible head of the Roman Catholic Church, with only one word of biblical support to prove it: the code word "Babylon." I'm reminded of Adam Clarke's old comment, "It's true that all the ancient ecclesiastical writers have ascribed to the word Babylon a mystical meaning; for though the Greek and Latin fathers commonly understood Rome, yet the Syriac and Arabic writers understood it literally, as denoting a town in the east; and if we are to be guided by opinion, an oriental writer is surely as good authority, on the present question, as a European."

TPD simply assumes Peter founded the church in Rome because he went there. On the one hand it presents evidence to prove "Peter was in Rome and established a church," and then a paragraph later states "Irenaeus spoke of the church in Rome founded by the apostles Peter and Paul." Which is it? I'll assume Mr. Rose will claim both are true.  Whichever it is, the historical waters are quite murky for Rome's defenders in regard to Peter's physical presence in Rome. One tradition posits that Peter and Paul established the Roman Church in the early 40’s. Peter is said to have remained in Rome for twenty-five years, preaching the Gospel, and eventually writing the epistles of 1 and 2 Peter. Some versions of this twenty-five year period include Peter’s travels, with Rome serving as his “home base” when he wasn't on missionary trips or attending church councils. Other versions have Peter going to Rome shortly after the Jerusalem council in 49 AD, and then returning to Rome just prior to 60 AD. Yet another version has Peter going to Rome one time only: towards the end of life during Nero’s reign. It depends on which defender of Rome one is dealing with as to which version is utilized. Catholic Answers posits that "if Peter never made it to the capital, he still could have been the first pope, since one of his successors could have been the first holder of that office to settle in Rome." On the other hand, the Catholic Encyclopedia sees it as essential for Peter to be in Rome at some point: "The essential fact is that Peter died at Rome: this constitutes the historical foundation of the claim of the Bishops of Rome to the Apostolic Primacy of Peter." Yet for TPD, the reader is to trust that Mr. Rose is presenting an unbiased look at the facts. Some Protestants have looked at the same facts and have concluded that Peter may not have gone to Rome at all. Perhaps what Mr. Rose should have sought to provide is a fair accounting of differing interpretations rather than his own biased conclusions.

Addendum
TPD states, "we know the names and approximate dates of all of the popes, all the way back to the first century."

The Problem of the Anti-Popes.
Another riddle of Roman Catholicism is the scandalous specter of having more than one infallible pope at the same time—a pope and an anti-pope. The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church says “there have been about thirty-five anti-popes in the history of the Church.” How can there be two infallible and opposing popes at the same time? Which is the true pope? Since there is no infallible list of popes or even an infallible way to determine who is the infallible pope, the system has a serious logical problem. Further, this difficulty has had several actual historical manifestations which bring into focus the whole question of an infallible pope.  Geisler, N. L., and MacKenzie, R. E. (1995). Roman Catholics and Evangelicals: agreements and differences (p. 217). Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian; Other Christian
KEYWORDS: apologetics; catholic; protestant
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To: Leaning Right; RnMomof7

.
The wedges we seek divide those in the light from those in darkness, whether they be catholic , protestant, or Islam.

What fellowship hath Light with Darkness?

Yeshua had no church nor denominations; all he had was his assembly, which still stands strong to this day.

.

.


21 posted on 02/01/2015 5:30:29 PM PST by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: kidd

.
The tantrum appears to be yours.

.


22 posted on 02/01/2015 5:35:27 PM PST by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: RnMomof7; metmom; boatbums; caww; presently no screen name; redleghunter; Springfield Reformer; ...
Part 3

The Problem of the Anti-Popes. Another riddle of Roman Catholicism is the scandalous specter of having more than one infallible pope at the same time—a pope and an anti-pope. The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church says “there have been about thirty-five anti-popes in the history of the Church.” How can there be two infallible and opposing popes at the same time? Which is the true pope? Since there is no infallible list of popes or even an infallible way to determine who is the infallible pope, the system has a serious logical problem. Further, this difficulty has had several actual historical manifestations which bring into focus the whole question of an infallible pope. Geisler, N. L., and MacKenzie, R. E. (1995). Roman Catholics and Evangelicals: agreements and differences (p. 217). Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books.

Notable statement.

23 posted on 02/01/2015 6:57:14 PM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: RnMomof7

The strongest arguments against a monarchical papacy going back to St. Peter are ones that no protestant (or “Biblical Christian” or whatever self-descriptor any given Western non-papist prefers) would make:

First, during the persecutions, there was no way for the Church of Rome to exercise any sort of primacy over the other local churches, and many doctrinal matters — as for instance the suppression of the adoptionist heresy of Paul of Samosata — were handled without reference to Rome by local churches.

Second the Epistle of St. Ignatius of Antioch (third bishop of Antioch in succession from St. Peter, who undoubtedly was the first bishop of Antioch — even the Latins admit this) to the Smyranean, the first place where the work katholike (catholic) is applied to the Church, sets for the principle of unity of the Church as the local bishop, not the Bishop of Rome.

And, finally, once the persecutions ended, the canon of the Council of Nicaea dealing with papal primacy (and there is one) makes clear that it is a local primacy over the nearby churches in Italy by drawing analogy the primacy exercised by Alexandria over nearby churches in Egypt — this canon makes no sense whatsoever if the ancient Church had held anything like the modern Latin doctrine of universal papal primacy.


24 posted on 02/01/2015 7:00:44 PM PST by The_Reader_David (And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know...)
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To: daniel1212
Which is the true pope?

History records the pope with the better armies and political connections. How convenient there were so many Medici popes.

25 posted on 02/01/2015 8:26:22 PM PST by redleghunter (Your faith has saved you. Go in peace. (Luke 7:50))
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To: The_Reader_David

Not sure why you would say no Protestant would use such arguments. I have seen arguments such as these used by Protestants before. Peter Lampe’s excellent research in “From Paul to Valentinus” makes an inescapable argument from primary sources for the “fractionation,” as he calls it, of the various Christian assemblies at Rome, i.e., the complete lack of evidence for a unified monarchical structure that persists until Valentinus, late Second Century. A clarification of why you would disassociate these arguments from the Protestant apologetic would be welcome.

Peace,

SR


26 posted on 02/01/2015 8:27:15 PM PST by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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To: daniel1212

Interesting...but I hardly think that would make any difference to how catholics see their Pope. They seem to be quite blind to the obvious most everyone else can see but them.


27 posted on 02/01/2015 9:21:38 PM PST by caww
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To: Leaning Right
Here’s an idea. Insert wedges between the various Christian denominations. That way it’ll be even easier for the radical muslims to take over.

The wedges have been there for centuries. The lightning speed of modern communication (internet, etc.) makes them more visible, and, I would submit, less violent. Our problem with Islam is the paralysis caused by political correctness, which in turn bubbles up from the postmodern aversion to moral truth. Put another way, leftism is a death wish. The root disease is being promoted by figures on either side of this Protestant/Catholic debate. I don't care whether it's Francis or Olsteen. If they recoil in fear from stating the truth of the problem, they are contributing to the eventual death of our country, and surrendering the necks of our children and grandchildren to the edge of the scimitar. Images of popes kissing Qurans do not help. Preaching the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ according to the Scriptures absolutely does help. Make a Muslim a Christian and you have one less jihadi to worry about, and one more brother at arms in the fight to save Judeo-Christian civilization.

Peace,

SR

28 posted on 02/01/2015 9:48:27 PM PST by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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To: kidd
Not any more....

the Vatican newspaper L' Oservatore Romano. Pope Benedict XVI, greets participants of a three-day Catholic-Muslim forum 'hosted by the Vatican', Thursday, Nov. 6, 2008. The Pontiff has told Muslim clergy and scholars that Christians and Muslims must overcome their misunderstandings.

"Dear friends, let us unite our efforts, animated by good will, in order to overcome all misunderstanding and disagreements,"... the pope said in a speech to the delegates. ...."Let us resolve to overcome past prejudices and to correct the often distorted images of the other, which even today can create difficulties in our relations."

Francis kneeling and washing the feet of a Serbian Muslim...In the days since, he has called for "intensified" dialogue with Islam

Praying with Muslims in a Mosque...hands like Muslims toward Mecca in a mosque, with arms crossed


29 posted on 02/01/2015 10:02:47 PM PST by caww
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To: caww
Interesting...but I hardly think that would make any difference to how catholics see their Pope. They seem to be quite blind to the obvious most everyone else can see but them.

Tell it like it is. The blindness is willful. I know, I have been there, but no more. 😇

30 posted on 02/01/2015 10:05:02 PM PST by Mark17 (Calvary's love will sail forever, bright and shining, strong n free. Like an ark of peace and safety)
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To: Mark17
....”The blindness is willful. I know, I have been there, but no more.”.....

What is the reason they do so when there is enormous ‘evidence’ they are on the wrong path?

32 posted on 02/01/2015 10:11:13 PM PST by caww
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Comment #33 Removed by Moderator

To: caww
....”The blindness is willful. I know, I have been there, but no more.”.....

What is the reason they do so when there is enormous ‘evidence’ they are on the wrong path?

Well, to be perfectly honest, I don't know for sure, but I will try. I think many are very fearful of their religion. When they have been told a million times, that salvation is in a church, they are scared to death to look anywhere else. Pride is also part of it, and blindness, really is, quite simply, a mystery. It is possible, that each individual has different reasons, but those might be some of them. It is very difficult to explain.

34 posted on 02/01/2015 11:34:06 PM PST by Mark17 (Calvary's love will sail forever, bright and shining, strong n free. Like an ark of peace and safety)
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To: Mark17
Your response is very similar to those I've spoken with who come out of cults.....some or all of them come into view.

However it really is a matter of one ‘wanting’ to know the truth....’to want to know’ what God wants.....I believe when God sees the heart truly seeking Him HE then begins to open their eyes, ears, minds and heart to that truth.

And yes, it's difficult to explain after you step away...but that's what deception and seduction do......blind the individual of what reality is and the consequences.

It's so much like an adulteress relationship....it begins much the same way, unless you're raised in it, and it moves along like one, and unfortunately it also ends like one......

35 posted on 02/02/2015 12:13:21 AM PST by caww
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To: caww

It seemed to me at least, that many in my cult, were somewhat self satisfied, that somewhere along the way, it would turn out ok for their immortal souls. I was never like that. I never felt like I could live a good enough life, to work my way to Heaven, but I did not know what to do about it. I just wanted to know the truth, and God put people in my life, who showed me the truth. The only thing I asked, was, what took you so long to get here?


36 posted on 02/02/2015 1:03:22 AM PST by Mark17 (Calvary's love will sail forever, bright and shining, strong n free. Like an ark of peace and safety)
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To: Springfield Reformer

“No protestant” was, perhaps, an overstatement, but certainly the strain of protestantism (or, since some of them object to that name, non-papal Western Christianity) most represented on FR and most common in America is unwilling to look at the facts of the history of the early Church. Also, the argument I gave does not lead to the ecclesiology that protestants seem to favor, but to the ecclesiology of the Orthodox Church — the fundamental equality of all bishops, the local bishop as the focus of unity of the Church, and a conciliar approach to the resolution of issues a single bishop cannot resolve.

Lampe’s work, with which I was unfamiliar, as you report it is interesting to me because it certainly supports the Orthodox understanding of the papal primacy canon of Nicaea as dealing with a local primacy over the local church at Rome and in suburban Italy by pointing to a state in which even that did not exist.


37 posted on 02/02/2015 6:26:19 AM PST by The_Reader_David (And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know...)
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To: daniel1212; RnMomof7; metmom; boatbums; caww; presently no screen name; redleghunter; ...

It’s interesting to note that the Catholic Encyclopedia even states that a single head of the Catholic Church called the pope didn’t exist until the 11th century.


38 posted on 02/02/2015 6:43:58 AM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: caww
2 John 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
39 posted on 02/02/2015 7:15:58 AM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: caww
Interesting...but I hardly think that would make any difference to how catholics see their Pope. They seem to be quite blind to the obvious most everyone else can see but them.

Indeed, See the blind-eyed one-sided RC summation of "Innocent" 3 in this thread .

40 posted on 02/02/2015 7:31:40 AM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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