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To: Steelfish; CynicalBear
Is this the childish dialogue we are having here? Written words did not fall from the skies and magically assemble themselves into chapter and verse. They were part of the oral traditions that was transcribed Much was transcribed. Much of it was not

The "childishness" is coming from those who cannot think for themselves and can only ape the talking points given to you by your esteemed theologians - those people who have convinced everyone that they are better at thinking than others. It's childish to toss out silly scenarios like Scripture falling from the skies and "magically" falling into a volume. Does this kind of dialog count as "grown-up" to you? Do you seriously imagine that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John - whom the Holy Spirit carried along in the words they wrote just as He did the holy men of God from before Christ - first sent their Divinely-inspired contributions to some Pope in Rome and then waited around to find out if they would be received or not? Where are you getting these strange ideas from?

When Paul wrote to the churches at Ephesus, Philippi, Corinth and Galatia under the leading of the Holy Spirit, and he ensured copies were sent to all the other churches as well, did he have to wait for a general council to first inform him they were approved for world wide distribution? Or, as it plainly states IN Scripture, did these churches receive these writings with joy as from the hand of God and set about ensuring the instructions were followed, taught, obeyed and preserved? The answer is obvious, they knew from whom they received these writings as it was the authority of the Apostles of Jesus Christ giving it to them and their assurance that what these writings contained was the truth.

Going back thousands of years earlier, did Almighty God command His prophets to write down the exact words He told them to and to make sure the people heard and obeyed His teachings, have to wait for the Jewish magesterium to pronounce the writings as genuine first before they were held to account for obedience? Yeah, right, as if! You obviously need a bit more instructions about how we got the Old and New Testaments other than the slanted, Rome first drivel you have been reading. Here are but a few places to help you understand better the wonderful gift of Divine revelation we have and how we got it:

Oral Traditions and the Gospels

The Formation of the New Testament Canon

New Testament Canon

257 posted on 01/19/2015 8:32:26 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: boatbums

“.....first sent their Divinely-inspired contributions to some Pope in Rome and then waited around to find out if they would be received or not? Where are you getting these strange ideas from?”

Pure idiocy. Words just don’t float in the air. There is something called the received oral tradition. This is why all Gospels are not identical. There are variations including the omissions of several scenes. Not all oral communications were written. John makes this abundantly clear in no uncertain terms that even superficial literalists- so called “Bible” Christians can understand:

“But there are also many other things which Jesus did; which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written.”(Douay-Rheims Bible)

Apparently even this clear as a bell language goes over the heads of Bible Christians.

Divine authority was needed to sort out which tracts to include and which to exclude and which oral traditions were best reflected in sacred liturgy and practice.

You cite fundamentalist links that even renowned Protestant and Evangelical theologians have since decamped from as being historically inaccurate. And these are individuals who have spent a lifetime researching, authoring books, and teaching. Not the simpletons like your corner street self-appointed pastors or simpletons like the Rev. Billy Grahams; Rev. Schullers, Rev. Jeremiah Wrights, and the Joel Osteens of this world.

The historical and scriptural basis for Petrine authority has been the subject of intense scrutiny by colleges and universities around the world for hundreds of years. Scores of scholarly articles and books have been written on the subject. Apparently for “Bible-only” Christians this all goes over their heads.

So without further ado let me refer you to just one impeccable source that both Catholics and other Christian denominations often cite as authority. You might try reading this carefully since the author was a close friend of some of the apostles of Christ. His name is Irenaeus. I trust you have at least heard of him.

“But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient Church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that Church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition” ( Irenaeus, Against Heresies 3:3:2 [A.D. 189]).

And then there is Hermas and Ignatius of Antioch.

Hermas

“Therefore shall you [Hermas] write two little books and send one to Clement [Bishop of Rome] and one to Grapte. Clement shall then send it to the cities abroad, because that is his duty” (The Shepherd 2:4:3 [A.D. 80]).

Ignatius of Antioch

“Ignatius . . . to the church also which holds the presidency, in the location of the country of the Romans, worthy of God, worthy of honor, worthy of blessing, worthy of praise, worthy of success, worthy of sanctification, and, because you hold the presidency in love, named after Christ and named after the Father” (Letter to the Romans 1:1 [A.D. 110]).

“You [the church at Rome] have envied no one, but others you have taught. I desire only that what you have enjoined in your instructions may remain in force” (ibid., 3:1).

Once you come unhinged of Petrine authority, you have the foamy froth of interpretations from David Koresh to Jim Jones to all the vapid rot spawned by the curse of the Reformation.

Thankfully, leading Protestant scholars like the late Lutheran Rev. Richard Neuhaus and others have come to realize this. Or Ulf Ekman of the largest Evangelical Church in Sweden who announced the he and his wife, Birgitta, were converting to Roman Catholicism.

These folks have had enough of swimming in the shallow nonsense of Non-Catholic Christianity.


260 posted on 01/19/2015 11:03:51 PM PST by Steelfish
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To: boatbums; Steelfish

With all that evidence they still cling to the false premise of Rome. My guess is that most Catholics will never read and study to find truth but will continue to put their full faith and trust in an organization and the men that lead it.


293 posted on 01/20/2015 6:38:18 AM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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