Posted on 01/04/2015 11:18:55 AM PST by wmfights
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Both mid-trib and post-trib have that problem. I find it almost comical to watch those of either camp try to explain the seven years left of Daniel's prophecy.
So where does the Zombie Apocalypse fit in with all of this?
I had not thought about how date setting contradicts our eager anticipation of our Savior's return until I began reading this series of articles. They do lock themselves into a box. Thankfully, we can rejoice with them that it was just a mistake in their interpretation and not faith in the wrong thing.
Here is an analysis that supplies a different outcome whiut stretching the facts:
See Post #90 on http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/3240080/posts?q=1&;page=81
Furthermore, your insistence that Jesus ever made or drank intoxicating fluid in the recreational sense cannot and never will be established as an incontrovertible fact. You are simply taking a popular view rather than a surgically precise one, which is what a Biblical truth demands.
More later --
(Wrongly keying just previously wiped out about four or five apologetic paragraphs which I now have to reconstruct. Sorry.)
The so-called mid-tribulational rapture view is an attempt to address specific problems of the so-called pre-tribulational and post-tribulational views.
I think it is important in debating this subject in the context of Revelation to note that the translation of living believers is nowhere explicitly described in the book. Further, the resurrection of saints identified as an event in time only includes the bodily resurrection of those beheaded for their testimony (apparently a special resurrection). So what about all of the Old Testament saints? How about those who believed before the Law of Moses came (such as Abraham and other patriarchs)? How about New Testament believers who we agree as being the body of Christ, the Church?
ALL VIEWS about the timing of the rapture of the church in the context of Revelation are INFERRED.
That being said, I continue to hold the view that there remains a seven-year period during which God will bring about the salvation of all Israelites alive on the planet, and the fulfillment of all of the prophecies concerning Israel (though some are specific to the millennial kingdom that follows this seven-year period).
At the beginning of this seven-year period, the Anti-Christ will arise and deceive Israel, entering into a seven-year treaty with them. They, excluding those who have already trusted in Jesus, will believe the Anti-Christ is their awaited Messiah. They will be greatly disappointed.
In the middle of this seven-year period, the Anti-Christ will break his treaty, enter the rebuilt temple, and proclaim himself as God for all the world to worship. AT THAT TIME, there will be a “time of trouble” like none other. There are a specific set of signs, unique in the history of the world which identify this time period:
Revelation 6 describes identical events Christ spoke of to His disciples in Matthew, Mark and Luke.
1) Deception, False Christs, False Peace - Matthew 24:5; Mark 13:5,6; Luke 21:8; Revelation 6:2 (1st Seal)
2) War and rumors of war - Matthew 24:6,7; Mark 13:7,8; Luke 21:9,10; Revelation 6:3,4 (2nd Seal)
3) Famine - Matthew 24:7; Mark 13:8; Luke 21:11; Revelation 6:5,6 (3rd Seal)
4) Disease, troubles and natural disasters - Matthew 24:7; Mark 13:8; Luke 21:11; Revelation 6:7,8 (4th Seal)
NOTE: Numbers 1-4 are called the “beginning of sorrows”.
5) “Tribulation”, persecution and martyrdom of the saints - Matthew 24:9; Mark 13:9; Luke 21:12; Revelation 6:9-11 (5th Seal)
6) Signs in the heavens, specifically the darkening of the sun and moon (immediately AFTER the Great Tribulation) - Matthew 24:29; Mark 13:24,25; Luke 21:25,26; Revelation 6:12-14 (6th Seal)
7) Return of the Lord / Day of the Lord - Matthew 24:30,31; Mark 13:26,27; Luke 21:27,28; Revelation 6:17 (subsequent to the 6th seal, prior to 7th seal)
I find common ground with mid-tribulation, pre-tribulation, and post-tribulation rapture views.
I agree with the mid-tribulation rapture that the end of Revelation 6 is where the translation of living saints occurs, and is described in Revelation 7 as those who come out of THE GREAT TRIBULATION. But I do not believe this occurs in the middle of Daniel’s seventieth week, but some time later at an unspecified point.
I agree with the post-tribulation rapture view in that I believe the rapture that occurs at the end of Revelation 6 is at the end of the Great Tribulation but prior to the Day of the Lord, which commences at this time.
I agree with the pre-tribulation rapture view in that I believe there is a distinction between Christ’s return for the Church, and His return to set up His kingdom, though these two events are both part of the “second coming” of Christ. I also agree that “God did not appoint us to wrath” and therefore the Church will NOT go through the wrath of God poured out on the earth. However, I believe, like the mid-tribulationalists, that this day of wrath begins after the sixth seal has run its course.
This view is commonly called the “pre-wrath” rapture. I believe it resolves the various problems each of the other views have in being reconciled with scripture.
The author addresses a “time-setting” problem for pre-trib and mid-trib views. The author argues that both of these views allow setting a date as to when the return of the Lord will occur. I agree. But so does the pre-trib view. How so?
Consider that some verses regarding the return of the Lord for the Church describe this event as happening suddenly and unexpectedly, “like a thief.” However, Christ uses this exact description for His return AFTER THE GREAT TRIBULATION in the Olivet Discourse.
Matthew 24:29-31, 36, 42-44
Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other...
But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only...
Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
According to the pre-trib view, this coming of Christ is not the rapture of the Church because it comes after the great tribulation. Yet Christ says this event will happen suddenly, unexpectedly, and like a thief - ALL of the same reasons given by advocates of the pre-trib view AGAINST date setting.
However, if the Great Tribulation begins at the middle of Daniel’s seventieth week, and does not last for the entire remainder, but is “cut short” for the sake of the elect, then His return at the end of the great tribulation will be sudden and unexpected by those not continually watching and waiting for His return.
So, see, the mid-tribulation, pre-tribulation, and post-tribulation rapture views ALL have a problem with date setting. The pre-wrath view does not.
I think you posted on the incorrect thread.
From a post-tribber's perspective, their problem is the same as the pretribs, they both have two second comings.
The rapture of the pretribs and the prewrath's (and the older midtribs) amounts to a "first" second coming. Their "second" second coming identical to the singular second coming of the post-tribs occurring on "the last day."
On the occasion of her brother Lazarus' death, Martha, like all Jews of Jesus day, believed the resurrection would take place on the last day.
John 11:23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. 24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
Jesus confirmed Martha and the Jews belief correct three times in the sixth chapter of John, here's what he said in verse 39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
“On the occasion of her brother Lazarus’ death, Martha, like all Jews of Jesus day, believed the resurrection would take place on the last day.”
Will the “last day” occur before or after the thousand-year reign of Christ?
Because I doubt that you can find much support for arguing after. Yet, if the “last day” is BEFORE the thousand years, then in what sense is the day “last”?
There is only one second coming of Christ. But it involves multiple events over a period of time, just like His first coming. Christ’s conception, birth, growth to manhood, ministry, death, burial, and resurrection are all part of His first coming. Likewise, one aspect of Christ’s second coming is the rapture of the Church. Another is His return to earth to establish His kingdom.
His second coming involves a period of time and includes the millennial reign of a thousand years. The translation of living saints takes place in a moment. At the rapture, angels gather the elect. And we meet the Lord in the air. This is distinct from when He plants His feet on Mt. Zion and it splits in two. It is distinct from when the angels gather the wicked and cast them out.
Matthew 13:30 & 41
Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.
The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,
Matthew 24:31
And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
1 Corinthians 15:52
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
I do not find a distinction between the time period called the “last day”, the “day of the Lord”, and the “end”. I would be interested in any evidence to the contrary.
If the last day is another way of describing the day of the Lord, then the verses you presented only support a pre-wrath view, rather than arguing against it.
I went back to "My Comments" sectiob and found wmfights' short "Dispensationalism Ping" note block just below the rather long block of Post #4975 on the topic Is Prayer/Veneration/Worship to Mary Biblical? that I wanted to reply to.
I apologize to everyone on this thread for this gross error.
The seventy week Gap Theory and pre-tribulation rapture theory were both invented by John Nelson Darby in 1830. Been dividing Christians ever since.
>>The seventy week Gap Theory and pre-tribulation rapture theory were both invented by John Nelson Darby in 1830. Been dividing Christians ever since.<<
Dino was Fred Flintstone’s dinodog.
How nice of you to drop in and post to yourself.
I don’t believe the 2nd coming is multiple events, that’s where we differ.
Heb. 9:28 says when Christ appears it will be “the second time,” there won’t be a third time. In the next chapter, 10:12,13, it has Christ in heaven at the right hand “expecting” his enemies to be put under his feet. Which means he won’t be leaving heaven until then...to rapture anybody or anything else.
His enemies aren’t put under his feet until chapter 19 of Revelation, which assuredly does NOT take place before the tribulation, nor the middle of it.
Re: these two references in the book of Hebrews, 9:28 and 10:12,13, the writer of Hebrews must have believed the point in time that Christ descends from heaven to the earth to put his enemies under his feet would be when he appears “the second time.” No appearance, coming, or revelation until then.
The chronology of Revelation, chapter 19 leading into chapter 20, makes it clear enough that his descent from heaven to destroy his enemies (put under foot) in 19:11-21, would be that “second time” of Heb. 9:28, and “the last day” of John 6, which ushers in the millennial reign of Christ (chapter 20).
“The last day,” thus closes out this age while ushering in the next, the millennial. It doesn’t take two leaving heaven and descents from heaven (two 2nd comings), to accomplish this, one to resurrect and rapture the saints, another to defeat his enemies.
He descends from heaven, resurrects and raptures the saints on the way down, 1 Thess. 4, continues, now with his saints, to defeat his enemies at Armageddon.
Heb. 10:12,13, says he stays in heaven until his enemies are ready to be put under foot, chapter 19 of Revelation describes that very thing.
“I dont believe the 2nd coming is multiple events, thats where we differ.”
We can agree that “at His coming” designates His arrival, but I think we differ more in that you describe my view as having a second and third coming. You say that His second coming is not multiple events, but you include multiple events in your description:
1. Christ descends from heaven to the earth
2. resurrects and raptures the saints on the way down
3. defeat his enemies at Armageddon
Do you believe all of this happens in one calendar day that is the “last day”?
“His enemies arent put under his feet until chapter 19 of Revelation, which assuredly does NOT take place before the tribulation, nor the middle of it.”
But you argue that the battle of Armageddon happens AFTER He leaves Heaven. So I am not sure what distinction is being made by “waiting till His enemies are made His footstool”. At the point you mention, there is still the need to defeat anti-Christ and the Devil has not yet been cast into the lake of fire.
Paul describes the second coming this way:
2 Thessalonians 1:7-10
And to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe...
So, you are correct that He will put down His enemies when He comes the second time (and there is no third time). This cannot describe the beginning of Daniel’s seventieth week. Nor can it be the middle, at the beginning of the Great Tribulation. However, it can be at the end of the Great Tribulation and beginning of the Day of wrath during which His holy angels execute judgments of flaming fire. Notice when these begin in Revelation.
Revelation 8:3-11
Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, ascended before God from the angels hand. Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and threw it to the earth. And there were noises, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake. So the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound. The first angel sounded: And hail and fire followed, mingled with blood, and they were thrown to the earth. And a third of the trees were burned up, and all green grass was burned up. Then the second angel sounded: And something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea, and a third of the sea became blood. And a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed. Then the third angel sounded: And a great star fell from heaven, burning like a torch, and it fell on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water. The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters became wormwood, and many men died from the water, because it was made bitter.
These are the judgments that immediately follow the recognition by the inhabitants of earth that the wrath of the Lamb has arrived. They embody Paul’s description of Christ returning with holy angels who inflict judgments of flaming fire.
Peter describes the Day of the Lord similarly:
2 Peter 3:10-12
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?
Isaiah describes the day of the Lord this way:
Isaiah 2:10-12
Enter into the rock, and hide in the dust,
From the terror of the Lord
And the glory of His majesty.
The lofty looks of man shall be humbled,
The haughtiness of men shall be bowed down,
And the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day.
For the day of the Lord of hosts
Shall come upon everything proud and lofty,
Upon everything lifted up
And it shall be brought low
Is this not His enemies being made His footstool?
Paul clarifies the order again here:
1 Corinthians 15:22-26
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christs at His coming. Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
As I said before, I see no distinction made between the “day of the Lord”, the “last day” and the “end”. I believe these are all designations for the same thing, which is the time period immediately following the return of Christ. It is during this end time period that all rule and authority of men is brought into subjection to Christ.
When Christ returns He will be visible to the world, and they will mourn:
Revelation 1:7
Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.
This mourning is what happens after the sixth seal:
Revelation 6:15-17
And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?
This also matches other passages regarding the day of the Lord, as I mentioned earlier in the Isaiah 2 passage. He describes this time in more detail in chapter 13, which I shall leave out for brevity. Joel says the same in chapters 1 and 3. I would highly recommend a study on the “day of the Lord”. This time follows the Great Tribulation and precedes the millennial kingdom. And Paul clearly designates its arrival as being simultaneous to the return of Christ in both epistles to the Thessalonians.
When believers are gathered out of the Great Tribulation and into the throne room of Heaven, it does not describe what people of earth see. We know they will see Christ when He returns. We know the Heavenly City which contains the throne of God and of the Lamb will descend from Heaven onto the earth:
Revelation 21:1-3, 22-23
Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.”
But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light.
We also know that the anti-Christ will be blaspheming those who dwell in Heaven:
Revelation 13:6
Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven.
And there is another reference to those who dwell in Heaven here:
Revelation 12:12
Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.
Right now, there is apparently one and only one Man in Heaven, Christ Jesus. That is, He is the only Man there bodily. There are souls of men before the throne, but no bodies. Then this description changes in Revelation 7. Suddenly there are multitudes of people there. And from there we see men described as dwelling there.
Remember Christ’s words about His return:
John 14:3
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.
What is this dwelling place?
Hebrews 13:14
For here we have no continuing city, but we seek the one to come.
Clearly it is the city of God, the New Jerusalem.
So, those that come out of the Great Tribulation, enter the throne room of God which is in the New Jerusalem, which will visibly and physically descend to earth after the defeat of Christ’s enemies.
Remember, the author of Hebrews says this Heavenly city is a future dwelling place, not a present one. Yet, we have seen where there are people “dwelling” in Heaven during the time of God’s wrath.
My reason for pointing this out is to show how the rapture of believers to be with Christ and be in the place He has prepared is part of a singular second coming. This Heavenly city is on its way to earth. It may even be visible to those who dwell in the earth during the time of God’s wrath. Clearly anti-Christ acknowledges those dwelling in Heaven. (How does he know this apart from a prior visible rapture of believers?) And then, the wrath of God is poured out on the earth until the ultimate defeat of all of His enemies. Then the earth is rebuilt and ruled from the Heavenly city. Christ’s second coming includes all of these things and His reign on earth for a thousand years.
This is the singular second coming, and it arrives simultaneously to the arrival of the Day of the Lord, as described in Revelation 6:16, among other places.
My goodness, UL, I’d have to write a book to deal with all your points. I’ll only try to clarify one thing you said: namely, that I said the 2nd coming is not multiple events, yet I had multiple events in my description.
When I said the 2nd coming is not multiple events, I mean a coming or rapture, whatever you want to call it, as an “event” taking place years before the the other “event,” the coming we see in Rev. 19.
Pretribs have that first “event” taking place seven years before the other “event.” Mid-tribs have their first event taking place 3 1/2 years before the other event. Not sure how many years the prewraths have their first event taking place before the latter event, some say 1 1/2 years.
But at any rate, they are two separate events - that’s what I meant by multiple events. Your “multiple events,” i.e., ...
1. Christ descends from heaven to the earth
2. resurrects and raptures the saints on the way down
3. defeat his enemies at Armageddon
are not my “multiple events.” Mine are different aspects of the same “event,” called variously in the scripture, appearing, coming, revelation, the last day.
As to the units of time involved in the three you mentioned, the first two take place in the twinkle of an eye (1 Thess. 4). Number three? I don’t think it will take the Lord very long to dispose of his enemies...do you?
“I dont think it will take the Lord very long to dispose of his enemies...do you?”
No. But the question is not “what can He do?”, but “what does He say He will do?” We could argue that it makes sense for God to create the universe in three days rather than six, but He chose six.
My point is that all of the various paradigms about the timing of Christ’s return sound good and have an internal consistency. But when we open the Bible, we often find that our paradigms do not fit.
That is why I suggest a study on the topic of the Day of the Lord. There are many scriptures that describe what will happen during this period, what precedes it, and how the second coming is connected to it.
The traditional post-trib view does not allow time for the Day of the Lord to occur if it is placed after Daniel’s seventieth week. I’m not sure how there can be any dispute that the return of Christ happens when that Day arrives.
The pre-wrath view is a post-trib view, but it is held that the Great Tribulation does not last for the entire second half of Daniel’s seventieth week, and that this seven year period is completed by the Day of the Lord.
To me the differences between the various views come down to the questions: “What is the Day of the Lord?” and “When is it in relation to Daniel’s seventieth week?”
However, I find that views other than pre-wrath, prefer to generalize or gloss over the meaning and significance of the Day of the Lord when it is really the crux of the matter.
Much more is said in scripture about this Day than even the abomination of desolation and Daniel’s seventieth week.
The main reason that I usually engage in this debate is because I want to hear all of the arguments against my views so I can study the alternatives and be sure I am subscribing to the most well-supported. There are many things I do not understand about prophecy, but I do believe there are practical implications in terms of our witness and conduct and a correct view of the gospel, dispensations, etc.
The consequence of error on this subject may be to expect Christ’s return too soon or too late, and thus be unprepared. We are commanded to both watch and be ready, as well as to wait patiently.
So I appreciate your feedback and Biblical insights even if we do not reach an agreement.
Spot on CynicalBear.
Another excellent article thank you.for posting.
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