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>>This does not read that the marriage supper has occured or that it occurs before the trimphant return, rather, that it is ready to occur. This could easily be after the conquering of God’s enemies.<<

I was not asserting. It is clear within the logical flow of Revelation the bride is given in verse 8 fine linen to wear. In verse 14 the same is clothed in fine linen coming with Christ. Hard to get around the same passage same object with proper descriptor.

>>The Church is never called the Bride per se, but Paul does allude to it in Ephesians 5:24-27, and 2 Cor 11:2. Contrarily, Jesus said we are the “friends” of the bridegroom (Mark 2:19).<<

Well thanks for dashing your own point:) You state the Church is not the bride yet you also point out Paul used such a descriptor.

>>Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.<<

Yes “as a bride adorned..”

I hope you don’t view the references to eating the flesh and drinking the blood in John 6 as literal. Same here. John describes the New Jerusalem AS a bride adorned.

And in Revelation 19 it is quite clear the bride is not a city. Makes absolutely no sense it is a city invited to a marriage supper.

So the issue remains. If one takes what is plainly explained by John in Revelation 19, we see the bride of Christ supping with Him before gearing and mounting up for the Second Coming.

For amils/partial preterists this becomes an issue but they simply pull the allegory card. Plus they deny Revelation 20 is actually laying out an order of events. It’s why they insist there is only one simultaneous resurrection; no literal earthly millennium and believe the earth is completely melted down and immediately the new Jerusalem is ushered in.

For the post tribulation millennial view (historic view), which I believe is your point of view the “caught up” or translation of the church occurs at the end of the Great Tribulation but before the physical second coming of Christ. This would be the same view of events Ireneaus described in Against Heresies Book V. So Biblically speaking, from a literal approach I can see how many in the Body of Christ agree with this view. It does not require a lot of explaining. However most amils pound this view as well as pre-trib because given the rapture or “caught up” NT passages, they strongly present a shedding of the mortal for immortal. Which means Resurrection, glorification of the body. “Changed in a blink of the eye.” So amils conclude both views are claiming there are actually three resurrections. One at translation of the church, one after the second coming for those who opposed the beast and the other remaining dead who would be raised after the millennium. Every debate/exchange a post-trib has with an amil this is what is focused on. I digress but needed for context.

For the pre-trib view my observations are they start with a theological approach. That would be “the wrath to come” and nature of judgment contained in the seals, trumpets and vials (bowls). Some believe this begins with the revealing of antichrist or his pact with Israel; some see it at the last seal given the clear indication of wrath. Some are last trump or Mid tribulation adherents. And most of this stems from a distinction between Israel and Church.

Out of all the eschatological views, the pre-trib view takes in a large volume of OT scriptures which harmonize with the NT. Whereas the other two views heavily look at NT prophecy using the NT only. This IMO ignores the Jewish audience Jesus Christ and His apostles addressed.

So I don’t act like an “ugly Gentile” our Messianic Jewish brethren have views I think many of us have dismissed or overlooked. I pinged a gentleman, roamer_1, who may be able to tell us how wrong we all are:)

I hope we can all keep this thread civil and explore these most important topics in Holy Scriptures.

Precisely so. The wedding feast is held in heaven while the bowls/vials are being poured out. This is the wrath that we are promised to avoid.

Well thanks for dashing your own point:) You state the Church is not the bride yet you also point out Paul used such a descriptor.

Yet, there is something there - There is the Bride, there are the 'Friends of the Groom', there are the 'Maidens' who kept oil in their lamps... All attend - All will be dressed for the wedding in white raiment... There is probably a pretty decent study in this...

So the issue remains. If one takes what is plainly explained by John in Revelation 19, we see the bride of Christ supping with Him before gearing and mounting up for the Second Coming.

Gentleman? You must be thinking of my dad :P

I don't know that I have a whole lot to add - Yours is a straightforward literal view. But there are a few notes to keep in mind:

Firstly, there are many things yet to happen which require the Church to be present here. I am not of the mind that the Rapture could happen any day now. There is far too much left to do... There is also a fair chance of martyrdom, like there always has been in the past when the beast rises up.

Secondly (though probably most importantly), any eschatology which assumes 'DEM JOOOOS' get to undergo the wrath of YHWH is operating under an extreme deficit: It is the 'Time of Jacob's Trouble', and Jacob WILL be saved out of it. The rapture will necessarily occur after 'ALL Israel' can be saved.

Thirdly, there is a distinction between the 'Tribulation' and the 'Wrath of YHWH'. There is a cause/effect going on in the early signs - A sign occurs, and as a result, bad stuff happens - terrible blights, wars, and etc... These are not Wrath directly from the Throne - Like in the days of Noah, things were very terribly corrupted long before YHWH finally put his hand to the deal. When He did, utter calamity. Before that though, many awful things were happening to men and to the creation that were not YHWH's doing - just natural cause and effect.

I think the point of distinction is predictably the seventh trump - All that (parenthetically) occurs prior to that point is evil rising to be exposed. Just before the sounding of the seventh trump we read:

Rev 10:5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
Rev 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

(e-Sword:KJV)

The seventh trump sounds and it's 'Game Over'. All that's left now is the cleanup. So inevitably, the rapture has occurred, or occurs (my view, and with Biblical support) at this coming precise moment: Directly AS the seventh trumpet sounds, we read:

Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Prior to this moment (precisely Rev 11:18) was not the wrath - from now on IS the wrath.

And finally, one of my pet peeves about these discussions, if one is limited only to Daniel and Revelation, one cannot understand ANYTHING. The Prophecy is all one continuous thing. Try reading all of it as one studies - I guarantee a much wider view.