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To: boatbums

boatbums:

Again, there was no monolithic Jewish Canon. the order the way books are presented in modern Bibles follows the Alexandrian canon from which the LXX comes from. The LXX version was the OT of the early Church and the 7 Deuterocanonicals were frequently cited without distinction in the theological writings going back to the time of Saint Clement of Rome, the Didache, Saint Polycarp, who was a student of the Apostle John, the Letter of Barnabas, Saint Irenaeus and St. Hippolytus of Rome represent citations from around 80AD [Didache] to 200 AD [Saint Hippolytus of Rome] who cited it. The Muratorian Fragment lists the Book of Wisdom as canonical, along with some 22 of the NT canon, and Saint Justin Martyr in his debates with the Palestians Jew Trypho, stresses the LXX version.

And as stated earlier, DSS contain most of the Deuterocanonicals.

As for your list, you seem to rely on Jewish writings, most of which come from after the time of Christ. In addition, the Jewish sources you are appealing to reflect Jews how rejected Christ as the 2nd Person of the Trinity, thus rejected him as Truly God’s Divine Son, thus rejecting Christ Divinity as God.

So what you are implicitly holding to is that God gave these Men the Grace to determine the appropriate Jewish Canon yet these same men did not respond to that Grace to believe in Christ.

I as a Catholic, while respecting the Jewish Tradition, can’t accept a Jewish canon of the OT that is already divergent from what the Church has as its OT canon, which is basically the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox OT canon, not Protestant [a basic canon, but not yet defined]. However, as you note, by the 4th century, Church Councils [regional] but affirmed by the Pope in Rome did in fact begin to issue formal pronouncements on the canon, and ALL OT canonical list in said Councils and Papal statements have the 46 book OT found in the Catholic Canon today.

So given the choice, do I 1) believe that God gave the Grace to those 4th century Councils and Pope’s to define the canon or do I believe in 2) that God gave the Grace to those late 1st century and 2nd century Jews???

Well I think you know the answer to that.


77 posted on 12/21/2014 1:24:37 PM PST by CTrent1564
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To: CTrent1564
So what you are implicitly holding to is that God gave these Men the Grace to determine the appropriate Jewish Canon yet these same men did not respond to that Grace to believe in Christ.

No, you are wrong. What I do hold is that God gave the Oracles of God to the Jewish people and those who worshiped Him in truth recognized His voice spoken through the prophets. The writers of the Apocryphal books (if they are known) NEVER claimed to be prophets of the Lord (one even stated there WERE no prophets in the land at that time). The simple point is that these books were NOT considered as Divinely-inspired (God-breathed) writings either by the Jews OR the early church. Though they might have been considered as inspirational, historical or helpful, they did not warrant the recognition of divine origin whereby doctrines of the faith are devised. Wording to that very thing is part of Jerome's own introductions to those books in the Vulgate. And once again, books included in the Septuagint did NOT confer inspiration by God or their place in a canon.

I've argued this point with FRoman Catholics for nearly ten years now, and I have YET to be convinced you are right. In fact, to believe these books belong right up there along side of Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Joel, Hosea, etc. is to disparage Divinely-inspired Scripture. If books that contain historical errors, myths, legends, mistakes and contradictions are thought of as equal to the rest of Scripture, then their very authority is questioned - which WAS the intent from Trent - and the Catholic church presumes to be the authority OVER God's word. I reject that completely.

107 posted on 12/21/2014 9:50:24 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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