Posted on 12/19/2014 1:30:26 PM PST by SeekAndFind
>> “There is, however, a Law of Love, and a Law of Liberty.
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Agree!
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You keep trying to turn obedience in love into a curse.
What is it about obedience that you despise?
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If you reject the concept of individual revelation then you reject Paul and reject the spiritual gifts. For how can an individual have a calling to a task without the individual revelation and gifting by the Holy Spirit? As to the authority beyond the bible, you are confused. The bible is the text and testament of the Word. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The bible needs no other authority as it comes from God.
The Nevi’im and Ketuvim were added because they contained the continuing revelations of God to the sinners as to how God will would make up for man’s failings and falling away. They lay the foundations for how Jesus would come and would make the ultimate sacrifice .... and fulfill the Torah.
Following that pattern, the Gospels, like the Torah, show the mercy of God by sending his Son. Can one live their life according to the Torah, yes. Can one live their life according to the Gospels, yes. However, just as the other books of the Tanakh help individuals to take comfort and strength from examples both good and bad, the Acts and Epistles help man relate to the message of God. They provide examples to guide the foundling and floundering Christian.
The Bible clearly lays out the authority of Christ as head of the Church. Not pope, pastor or priest or other worldly authority. The Bible does NOT lay out a structure for the Church. There are only gifts of the Holy Spirit that are to be used to fulfill the mission of the church. Those roles are:
Apostle
Prophet
Evangelist
Pastor
Teacher
To that Apostles added the roles of Deacon and Bishop. To the Deacon was given the role of the distribution of charity. To the Bishop was given the role of steward of the local Christians. The Bishop is not given the role of interceding on behalf of others. The Bishop is not given the role of inserting themselves between the flock and Christ. There are no rulers nor kings nor princes nor masters of Christians. There is no authority of one Bishop over another Bishop or Popes over Bishops. All first century churches were local churches serving and worshiping in their local communities.
What is clearly stated in the bible is that we as individuals are all responsible for our own walk. That we must approach our own salvation with fear and trembling because if we get it wrong, the price is terrible. On the day of judgement, no person will stand before God on our behalf ... unless, and only if we have a personal relationship with Jesus.
True. If it’s done out of faith, it’s done out of love - and vice versa...........
I don't despise obedience to the commandments of Christ. It's the obedience to the words of the enemy to put us back under the law which I despise.
Who doesn't agree is not a Christian.
You cannot have continuing revelation and no Church hierarchy.
That is the absolute story of the entire Bible. You cannot read it any other way. Why accept Moses? If you accept Moses, why accept Aaron and Hur? Why accept Joshua or the judges? Every revelation of God and restoration of his Gospel starting most clearly with Moses comes with a delegated authority from God and a hierarchy, formally placed by God or those with the proper authority to do so. You cannot find an exception. If you act in God's name without authority, you'll see that the penalty is severe: see Uzziah's entrance into the Holy of Holies, etc.
There's really very little hierarchy in the New Testament (between the churches; within we see bishops, pastors, and teachers mentioned), certainly compared to the Catholic church (and most protestant denominations) — this is to say that the early churches were meant to be largely self governing and, incidentally, why Jesus's messages to the Churches in Revelation were addressed to particular churches.
Only partly true as your link to Titus clearly demonstrates, read it for yourself. Paul shows authority, command, and direction over the Church. That's delegated authority coming from God. Why listen to Paul otherwise, because he's popular and a good speaker? That's not God's criteria - see David's selection for the specifics.
Who can appoint a Bishop and what is the methodology? That is how specifically is a bishop, pastor, evangelist called and set apart unto that calling?
What is the laying on of hands and when do you anoint with oil? See Exodus 28:41 and Exodus 30:30 and James 5:14. What are the specific circumstances calling for an anointing? How about casting out devils/demons and anointing for the sick? See Mark 5:16. What is the method there?
This isn't to say there is no [inter-church-group] hierarchy and that there was no deference of younger churches to the elder — the council at Jerusalem [Acts 15] proves that false — but even that council acknowledged the Holy Spirit as guiding them.
Please reread Acts 15. Who appointed Paul and Barnabas? Peter acts as head of the Church and that's clear from James' reference.
If not, then I think you have to convince me.
Jesus Christ is the God of the Old Testament and it testifies of him. Interestingly the title Jehovah, means "I will be that which I will be" meaning no man will define me. The NT does the same, only now it makes distinctions and clarifications, yet it's the same Church from the beginning.
I need not convince you. Convince yourself. It's all there in the Bible. There is an absolute need for proper authority in the Church to act in the name of God. That's not splitting hairs, it's the message. There's nothing arbitrary or random in God's Church.
Demonstrably false. The Bible clearly and consistently calls for a Church head and hierarchy. Throughout the Bible you see delegated authority from God and when a man takes that authority it contravenes the will of God. See: 2 Samuel 6:6-7 Any other reading is apostate.
I am not denying individual, personal revelation and I never did. How do you judge a spiritual gift? By what authority?
See here for how the Ketuvim came to be: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketuvim
The people added to them and they weren’t canonized until well after Jesus’ ascension and the deaths of the last Apostles.
How is one set apart to the calling of an Apostle or Prophet, an Evangelist, a Pastor or a Teacher? Who has the authority to do that? Which of the above are able to cast out devils/demons? Which can anoint the sick? How is that done?
You are responsible for your own “walk” with God. In the end, we are all saved individually or not, but there isn’t chaos in the Church, but order.
Jesus did to be an apostle and the people in the assembly at Antioch appointed them to go to Jerusalem to meet with the apostles because of the dispute.
>>Peter acts as head of the Church and that's clear from James' reference.<<
Peter was simply on of the speakers as were Paul and Barnabas but it was James who made the ultimate decision and statement.
No it doesn't. It clearly shows that the elder members of the assembly are to serve not as hierarchy but as overseers that all is done in accordance of scripture. And Paul clearly lays out the criteria required for one to serve in that position. The apostles clearly denied any hierarchy when Paul condemned for claiming to follow one or the other.
The role of Priest?
Oddly enough every Christian has that role.
(1 Pet 2:9)
But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s own people, in order that you may proclaim the mighty acts of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.(Rev 5:9-10)
They sing a new song:
“You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
for you were slaughtered and by your blood you ransomed for God
saints from every tribe and language and people and nation;
you have made them to be a kingdom and priests serving our God,
and they will reign on earth.”(Heb 4:14-16)
Since, then, we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast to our confession. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who in every respect has been tested as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore approach the throne of grace with boldness, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
Where are today's Apostles?
Did the "people in the assembly" vote to "appoint" Paul? If yes, then what constitutes a majority: 51%, 2/3s, unanimity?
Would it be possible to throw the caucus into disarray by letting more or less people assemble?
Peter was simply one of the speakers as were Paul and Barnabas but it was James who made the ultimate decision and statement.
I suppose in a church of one member this could work, but we already know there are four members at least in this church. Why did they listen to James? Is he the smartest, the best debater, did he have the best Powerpoint presentation or what?
These are aBiblical arguments. At every step, God's Church is one of order, not chaos or anarchoChristianity.
Paul wasn’t condemning their leadership, but the people’s confusion, common enough, that they followed one teacher or another after their baptism/conversion. This is very Jewish and having Paul, an ex-Jew, speak on it is very smart.
How do you appoint an elder? Is he an elder across any denomination or only in that particular one? Which elder is eldest? Is it by age or some other criteria?
This is a nonsense argument and you know it. There can be no Church of Jesus Christ without proper authority.
At that point there really weren't denominations, but there were churches… I would assume that, so long as the restrictions/qualifications are met, any method of appointment from drawing lots to vote by the body, to direct appointment by [e.g.] a Bishop.
Which elder is eldest? Is it by age or some other criteria?
(Matthew 20:25-26)
But Jesus called them to him and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones are tyrants over them.
It will not be so among you; but whoever wishes to be great among you must be your servant,
>> “How do you appoint an elder? Is he an elder across any denomination or only in that particular one?” <<
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There are no denominations in Yeshua’s assembly.
You are either a part of it or you are not.
Yeshua’s assembly is not a human corporation with human leaders, it is whenever and wherever two or more gather in his name.
It owns no buildings, has no Earthly wealth or symbols, nor “great men” to lead it.
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Are you arguing that every Christian is the proper authority of the Church? Which then appoint bishops and evangelists? You need authority and without it you cannot have a Church of Jesus Christ.
Spiritual gifts are given by the Holy Spirit and authority flows from the gifting. If that person uses their gifts in a way that is ungodly (as shown through the bible - fruits of the flesh vs fruits of the spirit), then the decerning christian will know the source of the gift. It is not necessary to have some human “authority” to make some determination.
The establishment of the Jewish canon is still of some debate with some supporting the date of the fixing to be after Jesus’s ascension and others many years prior to his birth (Hasmonean dynasty). It can be reasonably argued that the Torah was canonized and available to Ezra (444 BC). Rabbinic tradition asserts that the Prophets (Nevi’im) was canonized at the conquest of Alexander the Great (332 BC). It is the Writings (Kesuvim) that has the most uncertain end date for canonization. While virtually all the Writings were regarded as canonical by the time of the destruction of the Temple in 70 C.E., arguments continued regarding the status of Proverbs, Song of Songs, Ecclesiastes, and Esther, and these disputes are attested in rabbinic literature. However, we do know that the youngest book in the Hebrew Bible is the book of Malachi, written about 400 BC. The Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha not being accepted as canon by Josephus.
The authority rests with the Holy Spirit as to who is called and who is gifted.
Order only comes when Christians follow God’s will, not some man made tradition or authority.
Right, so that’s it, then. Good night?
http://biblehub.com/matthew/28-18.htm
Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
1. The Greek is perfectly clear. Who gave Jesus his authority?
http://biblehub.com/matthew/28-19.htm
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
2. Who can baptize and what is the methodology?
http://biblehub.com/matthew/28-20.htm
and teach them to obey every command which I have given you. And remember, I am with you always, day by day, until the Close of the Age.”
3. Which commands/ordinances are they to obey?
And this is just Matthew.
At least that part is correct. What is God's will?
Don't forget Ephesians 4:5. A church that doesn't baptize isn't the Church of Jesus Christ.
As a side question: the real First Corinthians is discovered. Does it become canon, why or why not?
I'm saying that whatever is not prohibited is permitted, insofar as church organization goes.
As stated earlier, the qualifications for [most] positions of leadership are really pretty open.
Which then appoint bishops and evangelists? You need authority and without it you cannot have a Church of Jesus Christ.
Jesus is the head of the church, He is the authority.
As for everyone else in His church, to have authority is to serve:
(Matthew 20:20-28) -- Also Mark 10:35-45 and Luke 22:24-30.
Then the mother of the sons of Zebedee came to him with her sons, and kneeling before him, she asked a favor of him. And he said to her, “What do you want?” She said to him, “Declare that these two sons of mine will sit, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your kingdom.” But Jesus answered, “You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I am about to drink?” They said to him, “We are able.” He said to them, “You will indeed drink my cup, but to sit at my right hand and at my left, this is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”
When the ten heard it, they were angry with the two brothers. But Jesus called them to him and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones are tyrants over them. It will not be so among you; but whoever wishes to be great among you must be your servant, and whoever wishes to be first among you must be your slave; 28 just as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life a ransom for many.”(1 Peter 5:1-3)
Tending the Flock of God
Now as an elder myself and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, as well as one who shares in the glory to be revealed, I exhort the elders among you to tend the flock of God that is in your charge, exercising the oversight, not under compulsion but willingly, as God would have you do it—not for sordid gain but eagerly. 3 Do not lord it over those in your charge, but be examples to the flock.
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