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I'm trying to understand Mary using both logic and what I've learned about the supernatural world beyond this physical one we're in now.

I'm looking at the people in Jesus' life and, as near as I can tell, Mary is the ONLY person who never let Jesus down, who always stood by him and was with him in the beginning, the end and the in between.

The Apostles, men we rightly hold in high esteem, and whose words we read, study, memorize and argue over, were not at Mary's level.

Even though they were in His presence and saw His miracles, they still had doubts and not one was with Him in the end, and one even betrayed Him.

They were not touched directly by God as Mary was. They did not know Jesus as Mary did. No one did. No one had greater faith than Mary. In fact, how could anyone have a greater love and faith than Mary?

I'm not Catholic nor Orthodox, so Mary and where Mary might be in the Holy Hierarchy are a matter of contemplation for me.

However, to my limited understanding as stated above, I think the Catholics have a much better understanding than the (pick your favorite flavor) Protestants have.

In thinking about Mary and her life, if I believe in an infinite Holy Trinity with infinite power, and I do, then it's easy for me to see that Mary out ranks every other human in life and also in "death".

So, all I can say is: Thank You, Holy Spirit for helping my understanding. I am grateful.

In spite of my laziness, and my built-in bias against what I grew up believing about the institution known as the Catholic Church, I should learn the Rosary.

Do not forget Joseph in the life of Christ as well. I think he gets short changed.

Joseph was a righteous man as noted by Matthew.

He was as obedient to the Lord as Mary was because he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him.

Consider:

He raised a boy who was not his.

He married a woman who was pregnant not by him.

He taught Jesus a trade as a carpenter.

Joseph protected his family by listening to the angel of the Lord on several occasions.

Bottom line.....Jesus has a pretty awesome set of earthly parents. Both sinners in need of salvation, yet both loved the God and were willing to obey and did obey. Can't do much better than that.

I'm trying to understand Mary using both logic and what I've learned about the supernatural world beyond this physical one we're in now.

Assuming Jesus is God, everyone He encountered was touched by God or am I wrong? Beyond that, Joseph had a little discussion with God, and many others did also if one will actually read the Bible instead of relying on memory or what someone told us. Why use a secondary source when the primary is right in front of us?

A further thought. Jesus very clearly says the Holy spirit will point to Him. And if what we think is the Holy Spirit doesn't point to Jesus, IT AINT THE HOLY SPIRIT, IT IS SOMETHING ELSE. That is a very important test.

Now where does Jesus point to? The answer to that is God the Father. When The disciples asked how to pray, Did He say go talk to my mother, and she will get back to me? No, he said “OUR FATHER, WHO ART IN HEAVEN............” We can talk directly to the Father which is a truly amazing thing and bears much contemplation......................

So the discussion here is honoring and respecting the saints and Mary, but the better thing is honoring and worshiping God. And the Bible is very clear on that, saying we should put NOTHING before him. So when one declines the direct invitation to God the Father and talks with Mary and the saints, I think one has done a BIG DISRESPECT to God the Father.

Now if you read Revelations Chapters 2 and 3, Jesus does not give a very good report card for the churches. In fact he tells us to REPENT and go back to our first love or HE will LEAVE. Which I think is go back to the basics, don't get distracted by the shiny things like little children. Now this is a long thread, with lots of arguments about the details. I am reminded of the saying, "The devil is in the details", there is a reason for that saying and evidenced here.

But I have benefited from this discussion. I can point out the flaws of RC very clearly but Protestants have just as many flawed traditions. Personally, I have had to do some discarding of things I thought I knew and been forced to test many things with the Bible as I hope many others here have done.

So in the spirit of getting back to the basics in Revelation, WHAT DOES GOD WANT? If I can get rid of all the confusing details, distill it down, what does He want? What is the main theme of the whole Bible? Now the value here is the process, working out your salvation with fear and trembling. I have a tentative answer for me but would be interested in other thoughts. In my mind, the answer to that reveals a lot about us so do some thinking, maybe even pondering.........