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To: redleghunter; EagleOne; CynicalBear; metmom; Elsie; daniel1212
First this thread has gone too long.

Happens all the time. Someone posts a seemingly naive question trying to convict Catholicism of straying from the scripture only to discover that Catholics know their faith, know the scripture, happy to have the company of Mary and the saints, and generally despise Protestantism. Then the thread gets spammed to hide the fact that the intention flopped.

Second a few verses from James taken out of its context and teaching point (dead faith) does not make a theology

How is it out of context? St. James devotes half the chapter to this question and answers it in general: faith without works is dead and man is justified not by faith alone. What is out of context is the prooftext like Roman 4:3-5 where St. Paul speaks of one man, Abraham, and uses the passage to reach a conclusion that circumcision is not necessary for the Romans to become Christians. The topic is not faith with relation to works but circumcision in relation to faith. Similar topic is raised in the previous chapter, "we account a man to be justified by faith, without the works of the law" (Romans 3:28). Here St. Paul teaches of works of the Jewish law and more broadly works of any law. Christ taught similar: "when ye pray, you shall not be as the hypocrites, that love to stand and pray in the synagogues and corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men: Amen I say to you, they have received their reward" (Matthew 6:5). But that is not what St. James is talking about: he is talking of good works done in self-denial out of a desire to obey Christ and imitate Christ. Those are urged throughout the Holy Scripture, because they are generally necessary for salvation:

But when the goodness and kindness of God our Saviour appeared: Not by the works of justice, which we have done, but according to his mercy, he saved us, by the laver of regeneration, and renovation of the Holy Ghost; Whom he hath poured forth upon us abundantly, through Jesus Christ our Saviour: That, being justified by his grace, we may be heirs, according to hope of life everlasting. It is a faithful saying: and these things I will have thee affirm constantly: that they, who believe in God, may be careful to excel in good works. (Titus 3:4-8)

God, (who is rich in mercy,) for his exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together in Christ, (by whose grace you are saved,) And hath raised us up together, and hath made us sit together in the heavenly places, through Christ Jesus. That he might shew in the ages to come the abundant riches of his grace, in his bounty towards us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God; Not of works, that no man may glory. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them. (Eph. 2:4-10)

What the good works are we learn form Christ where He directly explains how men are justified: by their good works (Matthew 25:31-46). St. Paul teaches no different when he comes to that subject:

will render to every man according to his works. To them indeed, who according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life: But to them that are contentious, and who obey not the truth, but give credit to iniquity, wrath and indignation. Tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek. But glory, and honour, and peace to every one that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. (Romans 2:6-10)

To say that James 2:14-26 is out of context on the role of good works is to admit poor acquaintance with the Holy Scripture.

If we read the entire epistle of James, we see no bold statements

I think, "the Protestant faith is dead" is pretty bold. 3 thousand posts and counting, gasping for air.

All of His teaching must be in the light of His death and resurrection.

Very true. This is why good works are necessary in imitation of Him, this is why prayer to Mary is necessary and the company of his saints is necessary in the life of a Christian in order to learn to be with Him in Heaven. This is also why deleting parts of Christ's message that you don't like deadens the Protestant religion.

Now to your proof texts.

Rom. 3:28-30, Gal 2:16,21, Gal 3:5-6,24, Phil. 3:9

... speaks of works of the law, has no bearing on the role of good works in justification and is, of course, Catholic teaching.

Rom. 4:5I

The context is circumcision and acceptance of Romans without it; the example is Abraham whose good works are known to us and St. James mentions some. It is not a general rule applicable also to those who can work.

Rom. 5:1

...does not say "faith alone". There are many passages that, rightly, praise the Catholic Christian faith. There is no passage that says that the proper Catholic Christian faith ought to be separated from good works and is alone salvific.

Rom. 9:30, similar Rom. 10:4

That faith in Jesus leads to salvation is Catholic teaching. But if you believe in Jesus you have to do what He teaches; the demons "believed" Him also. "Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 7:21)

Rom. 11:6, Eph. 2:8-9 (Eph 2:10 is always carefully omitted by Protestant scripture lovers)

correct, Catholic teaching. Grace cannot be obtained through works, it is a gift of God. We ARE saved by grace alone.

So what can we conclude with the above body of evidence? Works save?

We can conclude that the poster does not seem to understand the question. Works of law, works done for "boasting" or for money, or for prestige, or for other temporal reward do not save. Works that do save are explained in the same passage that also describes who is and who is not saved: the second part of Matthew 25. Work of any kind do not save alone: faith is necessary for salvation. Faith must be perfected by good works done in imitation of Christ and His saints. This is why a good start on the road to salvation is to learn about saints and their works and ask for their guidance and they will make your faith perfect and lead you to Christ. Go.

3,159 posted on 12/24/2014 8:18:39 AM PST by annalex (fear them not)
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To: annalex

The question was, after presenting a multitude of Scripture evidence, that our works, no matter the type, don’t save us. Only by the Grace of God can we be saved; only by the Grace of God do we bear the fruits of HIS righteousness.


3,190 posted on 12/24/2014 3:05:29 PM PST by redleghunter (... we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God-Heb 4:14)
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