Is Prayer/Veneration/Worship to Mary Biblical?

self | 12-14-14 | ealgeone

[Mrs. Don-o]

I finally read the quote you gave us from Unam Sanctam. The correct understanding of this rests on the Church's constant teaching that no one can be held guilty for an offense of which, through no fault of their own, they were ignorant. As Jesus said, even as he was being tortured to death, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."

According to Catholic doctrine, a mortal sin requires three elements:

• the act or omission is, objectively, gravely wrong
• the person knows he is choosing to do something gravely wrong
• he chooses it with sufficient deliberation to say that it was really intentional.

Keep this in mind for what follows:

[Vatican II Lumen Gentium, para 14]

"He [Jesus Christ] Himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it."

And...

[Catechism of the Catholic Church, para. 847.]

"This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: "Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience -- those too may achieve eternal salvation." [Vatican II LG 16]

So it is TRUE what Pope Boniface VIII said in Unam Sanctam in 1302 (everyone must be a member of the Catholic Church), it is ALSO TRUE that being outside the Catholic Church cannot be imputed as sin to people who neither knew that this was God's will, nor intentionally disobeyed God in this matter. A mortal sin cannot exist without sufficient knowledge and free deliberate consent.

This applies to those whom the Church terms "invincibly ignorant," namely, those who are quite blamelessly ignorant, through no fault of their own. It does not apply to those who were ignorant through sloth, pride, obstinacy, malice, etc.

These aren't just my opinions, they are the doctrines of the Church. Do you have any questions? -- I'm sure there must be areas I haven't covered sufficiently.

[boatbums]

Thank you both, gentlemen. I appreciate the mutual respect you always give.

As I mentioned, this tactic to shut Freeper women up on Religion Forum threads has curiously only been tried by Roman Catholic Freeper men against non-Catholic Freeper women. And it's usually asserted only after WEEKS of back and forth discussion when the man/men have nothing else left to offer and, in desperation, they throw it out there like a stun grenade hoping it will silence their opponent. If we had never revealed our gender - and it is not something I am ashamed of - no doubt, the argument may have naturally ended as threads this long often do - we just run out of things to offer and don't wish to waste anymore time. I'm surprised to see this kind of blatant sexism on a Conservative website as it is not an ideal that should be supported.

So, thank you for your encouragement!

[Mrs. Don-o]

"Advocating once saved, always saved? -- You're getting there! :)"

1. I didn't say "Once saved, always saved," --- putting words in my mouth, tsk tsk! ---nor did Jesus. Jesus said, (Matthew 24:13) "...but the one who shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved." He warns us urgently to persevere. It would be wasted breath if He knew everybody would just automatically persevere on autopilot, as it were.

2. How do you pronounce your screen name? I've been saying it as if it rhymed "WHEEL - GEE - ONE". Is that correct?

[ealgeone]

I finally read the quote you gave us from Unam Sanctam. The correct understanding of this rests on the Church's constant teaching that no one can be held guilty for an offense of which, through no fault of their own, they were ignorant. As Jesus said, even as he was being tortured to death, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."

Actually, we are held accountable for those things we are "ignorant" of.

The words bolded are pulled from the same greek word παράπτωμα.

3900 paráptōma (from 3895 /parapíptō, see there) – properly, fall away after being close-beside, i.e. a lapse (deviation) from the truth; an error, "slip up"; wrong doing that can be (relatively) unconscious, "non-deliberate." HELPS Word-studies

Ephesians 2 clarifies we are responsible for ALL transgressions, known or not, against God. It teaches the fact that all sin makes us dead before God....not just the mortal sins. It's all sins.

Ephesians 2: 1-10

And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

As Jesus said, even as he was being tortured to death, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."

This is a little out of context. The Jews knew who He was but the Roman soldiers did not understand the full ramifications of their actions. That Jesus forgave them for their actions indicates their guilt.

[ealgeone]

Let's get back to this as this is what started our conversation.

Your quote was:

"This is not an avowing of Universalism on my part --- I believe this to be an error --- but it is part of the Catholic belief that, though we are bound by the Sacraments, God is not bound by them."

I'd like for you to clarify what you believe to be an error. You may have to go back to the original post, but I'd like to understand what you are saying here.

We'll come back to once saved always saved later.

[Mrs. Don-o]

King James Bible 1 John 5:16
"If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it."

This indicates that there are sins which are "unto death," and sins which are "not unto death." The Church terms these moral sins (unto death, as in "a mortal wound" or "a mortal sickness") and venial sins (definition HERE)

A person might use the word sin to mean either (1) a grave wrong, or (2) a grave wrong + knowledge + consent. You've got to distinguish between one and the other. A gravely wrong thing always does objective harm, whether you knew it, or meant it, or not. It is always objectively wrong and objectively harmful. But it is not mortal TO YOU (subjectively) if you did not know it or did not intend it.

Consider if a mentally handicapped man with a mental age of two and a half years old, picked up a gun and shot somebody dead. It was still objectively gravely wrong, it was still objectively harmful. The dead guy is still dead. But the mentally handicapped person would not be subjectively guilty of first degree murder.

Or would you find him guilty?

[Mrs. Don-o]

Sorry. I see I expressed myself confusingly.

"This is not an avowing of Universalism on my part --- I believe this to be an error --- "

I believe Universalism to be an error. I do not avow it and the Catholic Church does not avow it.

Re-reading it with the rest of the sentence, it comes off garbled. (Wince.) Thanks for pointing this out.

[boatbums]

We’re supposed to be getting a taste of that here (Charlotte) this week. A low of 13° by Wednesday. No snow, though.

[boatbums]

What’s that you said about murmuring and backbiting?

[metmom]

That is about enough to make one want to crawl right back into bed.

Correction:

That is MORE THAN enough to make one want to crawl right back into bed.

[metmom]

How about answering the questions instead of answering with more questions?

I doubt all Bible scholars agree with your assessment.

Catholics like to claim that Scripture was written from oral tradition some hundreds of years after the events happened, and yet the oldest manuscripts show that to not be the case. They date back to the time of the apostles.

So the whole attempt to turn it around doesn’t work.

Not to mention the fact that they RCC is claiming that some of their traditions have been passed down faithfully for close to 2,000 years.

Ludicrous at best.

[boatbums]

Let your women teachers present their credentials, the denominations/sects/faith groups which are sponsoring them and then all can judge whether they believe and obey Sola Scriptura, they are yet another faith group recently formed to do whatsoever they deem right in their own eyes.

Anyone can do that right now by simply reading what someone posts and checking the Scripture reference they give - those who give it, anyway - to see if what they say is so. No different than the noble Bereans Paul commended. Why did you even bring up the passage about women teaching to me if you are perfectly willing to listen to what a woman says as long as she has the "credentials" you approve of? Obedience to God is what matters most of all.

[metmom]

You do know it is the work of the enemy to attack the integrity of God’s words?

[metmom]

rear guard.

Dang. Spell check don’t catch it if it’s spelled right.

[metmom]

Seems you called that one......

[metmom]

Let your women teachers present their credentials, the denominations/sects/faith groups which are sponsoring them and then all can judge whether they believe and obey Sola Scriptura, they are yet another faith group recently formed to do whatsoever they deem right in their own eyes.

Not a very subtle attempt to get someone to compromise their screen name.

[metmom]

Ouch.

That means we’ll be much worse.

[Mrs. Don-o]

??? I don’t know what to say. I’m not sure what kind of “credentials” are being talked about. Also not sure if it applies to just women, or women and men. Is this about women preachers as in, official professional clergy? Or just women contributing to open forums like FR? af_vet_1981, can you clarify?

[CynicalBear]

I’m starting to think we should build a weather wall of some sort between North and South Carolina. Too much of that cold is filtering down this far.

[metmom]

The Carolina’s?!?!?

Heck, make it at CANADA.