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To: metmom; BlatherNaut; CynicalBear
Could you not worship a painting as well as a statue? The reason statues were forbidden was due to their intrinsic association with pagan idol worship. Flat icons (paints etc) were not forbidden in the Torah. Consider the Dura-Europos synagogue, whose walls were covered with beautiful paintings.

And Jesus' reaction to the coin in Matthew 22 -- for the sake of context, remember that there had been a Jewish revolt only a few years previously over the issue of Roman military standards and coins. Some of those who "left Him and went their ways" no doubt considered Jesus guilty of idolatry.

"20 And Jesus saith to them: Whose image and inscription is this? 21 They say to him: Caesar's. Then he saith to them: Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and to God, the things that are God's. 22 And hearing this they wondered, and leaving him, went their ways."

In that vein, consider what how the Jewish people dealt with the issue of idolatry once the Romans had fully taken over and placed statues everywhere. The Talmud and the mishna both have some pretty interesting stuff regarding how the Jews dealt with statues in bathhouses, arenas, street corners, etc -- wen confronted with the reality of Pagans amongst them in earnest, the Jewish people were forced to abandon some on their odd rules (not taking a road that leads to a town that has an idol in it, for example). The rabbis mostly concluded that it was permissible to use bathhouses (which invariably contained a statue of Venus), to read the inscriptions on the bases of statues (which implies an interest in the work itself, not an aversion of the eyes when passing by), and to use streets that had Pagan temples on them (never mind avoiding sections of road). The Jews mostly came to a logical conclusion (the hardliners aside, who stuck by the old rules such as destroying a statue isn't good enough, it must be sunk in the Dead Sea)-- that intent is key. Unlike in the ancient period, the statues the Romans put up were not instrinsically associated with idol worship, and thus were not anathema.

Among the Jewish people themselves, the seeds of this can be seen in God's commandments regarding both the Bronze Snake in Numbers 21, and the Ark of the Covenant in Exodus 37.

Bronze Serpent in Numbers 21,

"5 And speaking against God and Moses, they said: Why didst thou bring us out of Egypt, to die in the wilderness? There is no bread, nor have we any waters: our soul now loatheth this very light food.

6 Wherefore the Lord sent among the people fiery serpents, which bit them and killed many of them.

7 Upon which they came to Moses, and said: We have sinned, because we have spoken against the Lord and thee: pray that he may take away these serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people.

8 And the Lord said to him: Make brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: whosoever being struck shall look on it, shall live.

9 Moses therefore made a brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: which when they that were bitten looked upon, they were healed."

Description of the Ark of the Covenant in Exodus 37,

"6 He made also the propitiatory, that is, the oracle, of the purest gold, two cubits and a half in length, and a cubit and a half in breadth.

7 Two cherubims also of beaten gold, which he set on the two sides of the propitiatory:

8 One cherub in the top of one side, and the other cherub in the top of the other side: two cherubims at the two ends of the propitiatory,

9 Spreading their wings, and covering the propitiatory, and looking one towards the other, and towards it."

Jesus Himself gave an explanation of the Bronze Serpent in John 3 14-15,

"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert, so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15That whosoever believeth in him, may not perish; but may have life everlasting."

This entire argument is summed up by Wisdom of Solomon 16:7,

"For he that turned himself toward it was not saved by the thing that he saw, but by thee, that art the Saviour of all."

405 posted on 12/11/2014 8:49:35 AM PST by Wyrd bið ful aræd (Asperges me, Domine, hyssopo et mundabor, Lavabis me, et super nivem dealbabor.)
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To: Wyrd bið ful aræd
Did Moses ever bow down to the image of the serpant?

Did anyone ever bow down to the Ark of the Covenant?

Were they ever commanded to pray to these things?

Did God ever command Christians to make an image of Mary?

407 posted on 12/11/2014 8:56:49 AM PST by ealgeone
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To: Wyrd bið ful aræd; metmom
>>The reason statues were forbidden was due to their intrinsic association with pagan idol worship.<<

Totally false. There are numerous references of God commanding not to make images as representations of either Him or anything else to bow down to. Here is another example.

Leviticus 26:1 "Do not make idols or set up carved images, or sacred pillars, or sculptured stones in your land so you may worship them. I am the LORD your God.

And another.

Acts 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

>>Among the Jewish people themselves, the seeds of this can be seen in God's commandments regarding both the Bronze Snake in Numbers 21<<

You may want to understand what was done to that when the Israelites began "venerate" it and to burn incense to it.

2 Kings 18:4 He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.

>>and the Ark of the Covenant in Exodus 37.<<

The Ark did NOT represent God. It was where He said He would meet them and speak to them.

Exodus 25:22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.

Trying to imply that the Ark was some sort of representation of God is error and excuse making. NOT WHERE in scripture does God condone making any representation of something that should be "venerated" or bowed down to. In fact He condemns the practice over and over.

416 posted on 12/11/2014 9:22:12 AM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: Wyrd bið ful aræd

God says, *Do not bow down to them.*

Plain and simple.

Bowing to them is bowing to them.


564 posted on 12/11/2014 1:44:39 PM PST by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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