Why would you think it was "logical" to ask about the need for prayers to be mentioned in Scripture in order for us to pray them when the question wasn't about specific prayers but to whom we direct our prayers? Nobody answered your dodge ball question because you hadn't answered the initial one. At least you finally conceded that we are not told to pray to angels in Scripture. See, no obfuscation needed at all!
As for your "simple" question about prayers having to be mentioned in Scripture in order for us to pray them, I'd say that's not anything someone would argue for. There are hundreds of examples of prayers various people prayed within Scripture. Jesus even gave us an example of HOW to pray, though I do not believe He meant for us to say the "Our Father" verbatim which would make it no different than rote and, possibly, vain, repetitions we are cautioned against. So, no, we don't have to only pray the prayers mentioned in Scripture. Our prayers should be from our hearts directed TO God and always sincere, else, why say them at all?
Nowhere in Scripture are we told to pray to angels. I believe that is a guideline for us rather than thinking whatever isn't prohibited is okay fine. If we are NOT told to pray to created beings, but to direct our prayers to God only, then we should do what God says. Prayer TO someone is a form of worship, I think. It presumes they have the power to hear us and everyone else who may be doing the same thing. It presumes they have an "in" with God that we do not have by beseeching Him directly. Most of the time, it misdirects praise and glory to the one being prayed TO rather than the ONE who actually answers our prayers and has the omnipotence to do all things according to His perfect will - to HIS glory and praise.
Because that is the usual Protestant method: to ask for the good works we do to be explicitly mentioned in the scripture and consider the matter closed.
I do not believe He meant for us to say the "Our Father" verbatim which would make it no different than rote and, possibly, vain
LOL. So when you ARE told how to pray, you don't obey, but when we do pray the way we like you are telling us to find a scripture quote where our prayer is in the scripture?
Our prayers should be from our hearts directed TO God
Absolutely. Agree 100%.
Prayer TO someone is a form of worship, I think
It is a form of worshiping God Who gave us the companionship of saints and angels and Whom alone we worship.
Yes, that does come to immediately to mind. I had written up a reply which included that (Matthew 6:8-13), and more -- was less than fully finished with it --- when days ago now had accidentally deleted it, so had to start all over again.
Though it not be a bad thing in itself to recite those verses (the Our Father) doing so by rote, although of limited value as prayer itself can perhaps still be a good thing -- for when doing so if we listen to the words, learn by them & allow ourselves to be reminded again of how best to form prayer, and then pray further in that manner, then there is much to be gained.
As the prayer teaching opens In this manner, therefore, pray, among other things in that entire chapter, as I am sure that you are aware (myself going over this just to go over it, rather than be posing as instructing you), included in the instruction is positive requirement that our prayers unto God (The Father) be offered in His name (God the Son).
In the name of Jesus.
It may be helpful for us here to remind ourselves that he was the Messiah.
We can take note also that as towards the context of the wider conversation here (praying to angels or to "Mary") Jesus himself did not instruct anyone to offer prayers unto himself either (much less angels, or his own earthly mother), but rather instead, to the Creator (the Father) Himself.
Turning momentarily to John 16 at verse 23, after having spoken to the disciples of how they will be persecuted, put out of the synagogues, even those who will kill them thinking they do God a service --- He himself, the Messiah will not be with them at those instances, with that possibly causing them to wonder if He was to soon cease the ministry and teaching He had been engaged in to then be soon abandoning them...
Telling them of that impending era to come, this time He speaks towards coming after He will have returned back to where he was once before, that returning as also was made mention of in John 6:62, Himself returning to where he was once before, with the Creator, his own Father quite literally in every sense of the word for that relationship --- for he had no earthly father.
In John 16 at verse 23 & 24 tells them;
23 And in that day you will ask Me nothing. Most assuredly, I say to you, whatever you ask the Father in My name He will give you. 24 Until now you have asked nothing in My name. Ask, and you will receive, that your joy may be full.
continuing there the theme inclusive of not praying to himself -- even after He himself will have been Ascended, literally before the eyes of a few of them --- away he goes, as He prophesied in verse 16;
16 A little while, and you will not see Me; and again a little while, and you will see Me, because I go to the Father.
There is a lot that can be said of this, but in fullest agreement with yourself and A-G, what I am aiming at stressing or underlining for purposes of this conversation is the aspect of Christ having not made of Himself to be the One to whom we should direct our prayers, but for Him to have otherwise as it is written clearly established unquestionably to whom we should continue this practice, just as the children of Israel, for 15 centuries previously, had in all ways and manner, and at all times during that 1500 years or so from Moses to Christ, when under guidance of those among themselves recognized as prophets --- and not false prophets, but genuine prophets of the One true God --- been instructed to address their own worship to the One true God, the Creator of the Heavens and the earth, alone, for themselves down to the last man, woman and child to have not been taught or advised to direct their upwards towards the heavens sent prayers anywhere BUT to the One --- Most High.
This is truly significant.
For Christ came to earth, not to do away with the Law, or to make some new thing or Law --- but to fulfill the Law which had already been given unto the Jews, including the salvation itself which had beginning 15 centuries prior, (albeit greatly veiled by the letter of the Law, similar to the multiple layers of veil which blocked off the holy of holies from view) beginning 15 centuries prior, been confirmed and ratified to them in myriad ways through prophets which had been sent to them over many centuries time, from their time of Exodus from Egypt (and even before) the overall revelation spoken of and symbolized down to the furnishings of the Tabernacle --- including what inevitably occurs when departing from what had been revealed.
In none of those communications and symbols were any directed to address or aim prayer towards a single other entity than the Creator, interesting enough in New Testament context also, including himself when coming to this earth as Messiah of Israel, the Only Begotten Son of God.
Instead He did say to those whom the Heavenly Father would adopt as rightful sons of His own, becoming then sons and no longer merely created beings (although still remaining created beings also) to address prayers to the Creator as true Father unto them.
There is a note of consistency in all of that. I find that unwavering consistency to be as said just before -- truly significant.
Turning again to John 16;
What was said as seen in verse 16 we see made the disciples wonder -- just what is he [Jesus] talking about, as in a ~this doesn't make sense...does this make any sense to you?~ type of discussion among themselves, and who could blame them? For we today have the written accounts of what eventually came to pass, but they were in the middle of themselves living through it all as it occurred, themselves not knowing or being able to predict the unexpected -- there being a sense within the text at about this juncture, even near to time of His later crucifixion; although He had told them here & there what would eventually occur, this which is spoken of in the opening passages of John 16 appears to have been alluding to His own crucifixion & death, the Resurrection and later Ascension and now adding mention that the Spirit would be sent to themselves, all of these spoken of rather all at once, at one time, using puzzling & less than fully explanatory remarks which raised as many, or more questions as the words Christ had just said had informed them of anything.
At risk of giving short shrift to what Christ said in verses 19-22 in that same chapter, him speaking of the difficulties which He would soon endure, likening that to childbirth, which words there could lead us towards considerations of the woman in labor as seen in the book of Revelation, moving on to John 16:23-24 Jesus says, speaking towards sometime after mention of His own going [back] "to the Father";
23And in that day you will ask Me nothing. Most assuredly, I say to you, whatever you ask the Father in My name He will give you. 24 Until now you have asked nothing in My name. Ask, and you will receive, that your joy may be full.
wherein our joy may be full...yet "asking" (praying?) nothing to Himself, yet in His name (the name of Jesus, after the will of God towards us which the Christ revealed).
3 You shall have no other gods before Me.4 You shall not make for yourself a carved imageany likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, ..."
Asserting Himself yet again, confirming that Word unto them (He can swear by no greater than Himself, and so does provide confirmation for things important to Him which are important to Him, I believe, chiefly for reason those things are very important to us (mankind) to keep us out of trouble, for He does know full well (and in His instance, "know full" be no exaggeration) what we are made of, and comes naturally to us in our own finite and limited human condition.
Look around the rest of the world -- and what do we see is the usual, and we CAN say typical religious thought but various forms of polytheism, ancestor veneration & worship, pantheons of gods inhabiting heavenly realms, multiple spiritual entities whom often compete with one another?
It is the Judeo portion of the Judeo-Christianity which as it stands in regards to all other religious thought and expression which I know of --- that stands alone as source for monotheism.
That is the branch unto which we Christians have been grafted.
What now --- are we to produce "wild grapes" of a sort, and introduce religious concept of there being a pantheon which consists of One true God in three "persons" (Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit) to which is then added many lesser "gods & goddesses" who in our descriptions of them act as Lt.Gods, JG (Junior Grade) to whom we lesser mortals should turn for assistance, aide & direction -- singing the praises of those as we go along, telling ourselves this is OK because these to whom we are now turning are on God's side (so to speak) thus safe for us to put our complete trust in?
Paul the Apostle's letter to the church of Galatia