The Return of the Prayer to St. Michael

Crisis Magazinei ^ | December 9, 2014 | JOE BISSONNETTE

[Elsie]

I just LOVE these prayers that sound like Gary Cooper said them in scenes deleted from Friendly Persuasion.

[Elsie]

Yet to this simple question neither of you has an answer.

I'm willing to see where you are going to take this.

No.

[Elsie]

Correct, as the Catholic church teaches both in Revelation and today, we should worship God alone.

---

 

Mary is the all holy one:  "By asking Mary to pray for us, we acknowledge ourselves to be poor sinners and we address ourselves to the 'Mother of Mercy,' the All-Holy One," (CCC 2677).

Devotion to Mary:  "The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an "epitome of the whole Gospel," express this devotion to the Virgin Mary," (CCC. 971).

Pray to Mary:  "Mary is the perfect Orans (pray-er), a figure of the Church. When we pray to her, we are adhering with her to the plan of the Father," (CCC 2679).

 

Mary is worshipped:  "...when she [Mary] is the subject of preaching and worship she prompts the faithful to come to her Son..." (Vatican Council II, p. 420). See quote in Context

 

No Better way than to look to Mary:  "After speaking of the Church, her origin, mission, and destiny, we can find no better way to conclude than by looking to Mary," (CCC 972).

 

"so no man goeth to Christ but by His Mother," (Vatican Website:  Encyclical of Pope Leo 13th on the Rosary, Octobri Mense, Pope Leo 13th, 1903-1914).

 

Mary brings us the gifts of Eternal Life:  Mary, "...by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation...(CCC par. 969).

 

Mary made atonement for the sins of man:  "...Mary, by her spiritual entering into the sacrifice of her divine son for men, made atonement for the sins of man and (de congruon) merited the application of the redemptive grace of Christ.  In this manner she cooperates in the subjective redemption of mankind."  (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Ott, page 213).

[Elsie]

Very cool shot show where we humans live!

Go to GoogleEarth and see what those little specks of light, out in the Sahara, are.

[Elsie]

Archangel Gabriel could hear Mary.

At what point in time??

---

The saints have abilities above human abilities (1 Cor. 13:12).

Let's see:

For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

Strange; I have FAILED to see any ABILITIES noted here.

---

However...

---

Let's try some easy math:

There are approximately 1.2 billion Catholics world wide;

If merely 1% of them  'ask' Mary for help just once each day;

that means that 12 million separate prayers are headed Mary's direction every day.

Given that there are 86,400 seconds per day... (24 hours times 60 minutes times 60 seconds)

...that means that Mary has to handle approximately 139 'requests' per second!

Purty good fer someone NOT 'divine'!

[BlueDragon]

Go to GoogleEarth and see what those little specks of light, out in the Sahara, are.

That would be interesting, but first I would check out the isolated specks in the Southern portions of Israel --- but not all the way down to the Red Sea, because I know a man who supposedly lives there now, and so am wondering what that portion of desert is like.

There must be some flat "pan" to is somewhere, I think, because I saw on his daughter's own web pages mention that he lived out there somewhere, and for fun had built a homemade, sail powered, three wheeled land sailer.

Like this maybe (though this isn't the guy I know)

[P.O.E.]

Thanks for posting this.

[Kolokotronis]

:)

[Alamo-Girl]

The point remains that veneration of saints has nothing in common with making calves and worshiping them.

I beg to differ.

It wasn't that calves were evil, the evil was what the Hebrews imagined them to be, and more specifically, capable of doing - delivering them out of Egypt which was something only God could do and in fact, did.

Likewise here, the saints and angels aren't evil, but if (big emphasis on "if") a person imagines them to be capable of doing something they cannot do and most especially, actually doing something that only God could do - then they are in the same boat as Aaron and the Hebrews in that passage.

This is where the words dulia, hyperdulia and latria leave me cold. To apply such terms to ones prayers does not make it so. "A rose by any other name is still a rose..."

In sum, the evil comes from the "image" - the imagination. God searches our thoughts and minds. Thank God for doing this because if He didn't care to, there would be no such thing as justice.

If we have forgotten the name of our God, or stretched out our hands to a strange god; Shall not God search this out? for he knoweth the secrets of the heart. - Psalms 44:19-20

Thus I will not risk it - petitioning a departed being or angel would assign to him/her at least some form of omniscience to be able to hear me and omnipotence to be able to do anything about it.

Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. - Romans 1:21-23

Give God the glory, not man or angel.

[boatbums]

Thank you for your encouraging words.

[Elsie]

bbbbbump, bb

[annalex]

You may want to refer to my ping policy on my profile. Briefly, in long reply-to lists, I am not going to sort out who did and who did not opt out. If you have a problem with that, speak to the original poster who added your name. Having said that, the ping lists are short, so I’ll try to indulge you, as an exception.

[annalex]

Look up all the times Scripture refers to "it is written"

Well, it only means that it is written... The fact remains that while the teachings of Christ and His apostles recorded in the Scripture are to be obeyed, they are not the entire set of instruction that the Church has for us. There is no verse that would say that the scripture is the complete and entire rule of faith. There is, however, a record in the scripture about Christ sending His apostles to teach, and neither in that magnificent text, no any other does Christ instruct them to write the scripture and then teach from the scripture alone.

thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven. (Matthew 16:18-20)

Observe: the Church binds on earth and in heaven. Is something similar said about the scripture?

Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world. (Matthew 28:18-20)

Observe: the commission for the Apostolic Church is to teach. There is no clause in there about the scripture alone being the teaching method.

the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you (John 14:26)

Observe: the Holy Ghost instructs the Apostolic Church directly at all times.

It isn't the words Jesus is speaking about but the repetition of them

No, He does not teach against repetitions, -- we discussed that. So what is it in the Prayer of St. Michael that smacks of pagan prayers in any way? What is it in Hail Mary or any other prayer of the Rosary that has pagan content? It is not a complicated question. Please answer.

If you are asking God to use the archangel Michael to do something for you, shouldn't you be praying TO God and not the angel??

Because I am asking Archangel Michael to join me in that prayer.

the reason Mary could speak to Gabriel was because he was RIGHT THERE WITH HER! She could SEE him

The important fact is that she had a conversation, not that she has eye contact. I can likewise have a conversation with any angel if the angel chooses to converse. So I pray to angels often, and everyone who believes in Christ should, too.

[annalex]

Elsie, dear. Nice to have you around.

[annalex]

doing something that only God could do

Not so. Mary had a virgin birth to God. Angels predict future and fight armies. St. Elijah was directly assumed into heaven. St. Stephen the Martyr, and countless Christian Martyrs gladly accepted death while witnessing to Christ.

The saints and angels we pray to did wonderful deeds because they decided to do them and God gave them the means. We want to be saints too; that is the only way to be saved. Therefore we seek the company of saints and angels, keep their images around and pray to them: so that one day we may join them. Nothing in common with the Jews in Egypt and their calves.

[Elsie]

Well, it only means that it is written...

Well...

DUH!

[Elsie]

Elsie, dear. Nice to have you around.

That's what ALL my groupies say!

Have you received the New Member package yet?

Deliveries ARE kinda slow this time of year.

[BlueDragon]

Having said that, the ping lists are short, so I’ll try to indulge you, as an exception.

oh, GET OVER yourself!

Your own comments hold within them consistently, poisonous popish-Catholic bigotries in both open element and clearly recognizable insinuation, enough so for those additional words to be like fighting words -- which is much why I usually drop out of any thread in which you show up with the usual rat-tat-tat expressions of your own bigotry.

It is one thing to disagree on matters of principle and theology, doing so honestly enough while speaking towards the basis for holding particular view --- (of which your own are quite hopelessly disordered due to inverted logic sequence & slippery identifications of just who is doing what -- and why --- but that's another story, which requires painstaking effort to unravel/untangle well enough for one then to be able to supply coherent alternative) ----

--- it is yet another to pose oneself as some form of Rabbi, while at the same time also subject others to as much insult to themselves as can be gotten away with under the forum guidelines.

So no...it is not myself here that is being made some exception for -- but it is yourself instead, this coming about not due to some "ping policy" I have which others must go visit my own page to view -- as if I myself was some sort of institution which had it's own formal public relations policy(!) -- but myself saying openly to you alone directly ---

Do not ping myself to replies of your own to comments made by others --- PERIOD.

When or if I have any interest in your own replies made in response to others, those can be seen on the threads, which I am in habit of reading comments made thereupon before myself venturing commentary or reply of my own.

[annalex]

Who gave you the authority to tell me what posts to make?

[BlueDragon]

Jesus even gave us an example of HOW to pray, though I do not believe He meant for us to say the "Our Father" verbatim which would make it no different than rote and, possibly, vain, repetitions we are cautioned against.

Yes, that does come to immediately to mind. I had written up a reply which included that (Matthew 6:8-13), and more -- was less than fully finished with it --- when days ago now had accidentally deleted it, so had to start all over again.

Though it not be a bad thing in itself to recite those verses (the Our Father) doing so by rote, although of limited value as prayer itself can perhaps still be a good thing -- for when doing so if we listen to the words, learn by them & allow ourselves to be reminded again of how best to form prayer, and then pray further in that manner, then there is much to be gained.

As the prayer teaching opens In this manner, therefore, pray, among other things in that entire chapter, as I am sure that you are aware (myself going over this just to go over it, rather than be posing as instructing you), included in the instruction is positive requirement that our prayers unto God (The Father) be offered in His name (God the Son).

In the name of Jesus.

It may be helpful for us here to remind ourselves that he was the Messiah.

We can take note also that as towards the context of the wider conversation here (praying to angels or to "Mary") Jesus himself did not instruct anyone to offer prayers unto himself either (much less angels, or his own earthly mother), but rather instead, to the Creator (the Father) Himself.

Turning momentarily to John 16 at verse 23, after having spoken to the disciples of how they will be persecuted, put out of the synagogues, even those who will kill them thinking they do God a service --- He himself, the Messiah will not be with them at those instances, with that possibly causing them to wonder if He was to soon cease the ministry and teaching He had been engaged in to then be soon abandoning them...

"But now I go away to Him who sent Me..."

having told them also of the Helper, which he identifies also as the Spirit of truth, will come to them, and to the world ---- which Spirit among other things will also convict the world of it's sin.

Telling them of that impending era to come, this time He speaks towards coming after He will have returned back to where he was once before, that returning as also was made mention of in John 6:62, Himself returning to where he was once before, with the Creator, his own Father quite literally in every sense of the word for that relationship --- for he had no earthly father.

In John 16 at verse 23 & 24 tells them;

23 “And in that day you will ask Me nothing. Most assuredly, I say to you, whatever you ask the Father in My name He will give you. 24 Until now you have asked nothing in My name. Ask, and you will receive, that your joy may be full.

continuing there the theme inclusive of not praying to himself -- even after He himself will have been Ascended, literally before the eyes of a few of them --- away he goes, as He prophesied in verse 16;

16 “A little while, and you will not see Me; and again a little while, and you will see Me, because I go to the Father.”

There is a lot that can be said of this, but in fullest agreement with yourself and A-G, what I am aiming at stressing or underlining for purposes of this conversation is the aspect of Christ having not made of Himself to be the One to whom we should direct our prayers, but for Him to have otherwise as it is written clearly established unquestionably to whom we should continue this practice, just as the children of Israel, for 15 centuries previously, had in all ways and manner, and at all times during that 1500 years or so from Moses to Christ, when under guidance of those among themselves recognized as prophets --- and not false prophets, but genuine prophets of the One true God --- been instructed to address their own worship to the One true God, the Creator of the Heavens and the earth, alone, for themselves down to the last man, woman and child to have not been taught or advised to direct their upwards towards the heavens sent prayers anywhere BUT to the One --- Most High.

This is truly significant.

For Christ came to earth, not to do away with the Law, or to make some new thing or Law --- but to fulfill the Law which had already been given unto the Jews, including the salvation itself which had beginning 15 centuries prior, (albeit greatly veiled by the letter of the Law, similar to the multiple layers of veil which blocked off the holy of holies from view) beginning 15 centuries prior, been confirmed and ratified to them in myriad ways through prophets which had been sent to them over many centuries time, from their time of Exodus from Egypt (and even before) the overall revelation spoken of and symbolized down to the furnishings of the Tabernacle --- including what inevitably occurs when departing from what had been revealed.

In none of those communications and symbols were any directed to address or aim prayer towards a single other entity than the Creator, interesting enough in New Testament context also, including himself when coming to this earth as Messiah of Israel, the Only Begotten Son of God.

Instead He did say to those whom the Heavenly Father would adopt as rightful sons of His own, becoming then sons and no longer merely created beings (although still remaining created beings also) to address prayers to the Creator as true Father unto them.

There is a note of consistency in all of that. I find that unwavering consistency to be as said just before -- truly significant.

Turning again to John 16;
What was said as seen in verse 16 we see made the disciples wonder -- just what is he [Jesus] talking about, as in a ~this doesn't make sense...does this make any sense to you?~ type of discussion among themselves, and who could blame them? For we today have the written accounts of what eventually came to pass, but they were in the middle of themselves living through it all as it occurred, themselves not knowing or being able to predict the unexpected -- there being a sense within the text at about this juncture, even near to time of His later crucifixion; although He had told them here & there what would eventually occur, this which is spoken of in the opening passages of John 16 appears to have been alluding to His own crucifixion & death, the Resurrection and later Ascension and now adding mention that the Spirit would be sent to themselves, all of these spoken of rather all at once, at one time, using puzzling & less than fully explanatory remarks which raised as many, or more questions as the words Christ had just said had informed them of anything.

At risk of giving short shrift to what Christ said in verses 19-22 in that same chapter, him speaking of the difficulties which He would soon endure, likening that to childbirth, which words there could lead us towards considerations of the woman in labor as seen in the book of Revelation, moving on to John 16:23-24 Jesus says, speaking towards sometime after mention of His own going [back] "to the Father";

23“And in that day you will ask Me nothing. Most assuredly, I say to you, whatever you ask the Father in My name He will give you. 24 Until now you have asked nothing in My name. Ask, and you will receive, that your joy may be full.

wherein our joy may be full...yet "asking" (praying?) nothing to Himself, yet in His name (the name of Jesus, after the will of God towards us which the Christ revealed).

Exodus 20:3

3 “You shall have no other gods before Me.

4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, ..."

Asserting Himself yet again, confirming that Word unto them (He can swear by no greater than Himself, and so does provide confirmation for things important to Him which are important to Him, I believe, chiefly for reason those things are very important to us (mankind) to keep us out of trouble, for He does know full well (and in His instance, "know full" be no exaggeration) what we are made of, and comes naturally to us in our own finite and limited human condition.

Look around the rest of the world -- and what do we see is the usual, and we CAN say typical religious thought but various forms of polytheism, ancestor veneration & worship, pantheons of gods inhabiting heavenly realms, multiple spiritual entities whom often compete with one another?

It is the Judeo portion of the Judeo-Christianity which as it stands in regards to all other religious thought and expression which I know of --- that stands alone as source for monotheism.

That is the branch unto which we Christians have been grafted.

What now --- are we to produce "wild grapes" of a sort, and introduce religious concept of there being a pantheon which consists of One true God in three "persons" (Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit) to which is then added many lesser "gods & goddesses" who in our descriptions of them act as Lt.Gods, JG (Junior Grade) to whom we lesser mortals should turn for assistance, aide & direction -- singing the praises of those as we go along, telling ourselves this is OK because these to whom we are now turning are on God's side (so to speak) thus safe for us to put our complete trust in?

Paul the Apostle's letter to the church of Galatia

8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.