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To: schaef21; C19fan

Nevertheless, Jesus said male and female were created “
from the beginning of the creation”. You can’t get around that.


Provided that Jesus spoke in English, the argument is rock-solid. “If English was good enough for Jesus, its good enough for Texas.”

Prepositions are notoriously tricky in translation, and when moving between not-terribly-closely-related language groups, verbs tend to become terribly problematic as well. “Creation” is also a fairly technical noun, and the meaning of a technical noun in one language rarely precisely overlies the meaning in a different language. The Greek word translated “beginning” also has a number of quite distinct meanings—it could be equally translated “ordering” in this context.

Picking apart a statement made in Hebrew/Aramaic and preserved in Greek on the basis of an English translation to gain light on something other than what is being directly addressed is not a very good idea. I’d elaborate more, but I have to go teach Greek (of the New Testament sort).


30 posted on 11/25/2014 8:21:46 AM PST by Hieronymus ( (It is terrible to contemplate how few politicians are hanged. --G.K. Chesterton))
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To: Hieronymus

You are correct in all particulars. Good reply to this post.


36 posted on 11/25/2014 8:36:13 AM PST by buffaloguy
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To: Hieronymus
If one accepts the Markan record as theopneustos (God-breathed), then we need not worry about the overlay of the hebrew, because only part of the statement is from Genesis.  the remainder is Jesus' own direct teaching, esp. "from the beginning of creation." The phrase "arches ktiseos," ("beginning of creation") was already an established term of art among the Jews and had reference to the temporal order, not a logical order.  This clarifies that "apo" has a distinctly temporal sense, and refers us back to that point in time.  See another example here:
Mark 13:19  For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
... where the exact same expression is used, and again has clear reference to a temporal framework inaugurated by God's act of creation.

So no, a modest complexity in the language is no safe haven from this problem.  Jesus meant pretty much exactly what it sounds like He meant, even in English, and we have to start with that, because he was there whern creation happened.

Peace,

SR   
47 posted on 11/25/2014 9:24:25 AM PST by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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