"Have you been saved?”

The Integrated Catholic Life ^ | November 16, 2014 | DEACON MICHAEL BICKERSTAFF

[Heart-Rest]

Salvation:   "However, I know I am a sinner and need to cleanse myself from personal sin through the Sacrament of Reconciliation."

Elsie:   "Can you explain (or link to an explanation) to help this PROTESTant understand how this process of self-cleansing works?"

=============================================================

Obviously, the part humans have to do to be cleansed from their sins is to confess them (like "Salvation" and the Bible said).    (That's what the "Sacrament of Reconciliation" is -- confession.)

------------------------------------------------------------

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.     1 John 1:9


"If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."     1 John 1:9

------------------------------------------------------------

God gives us a definite part to do for ourselves.

God's written Word tells us sinners that we must confess our sins, and God will forgive us, and clearly, that confession is what the sinner's own part involves in obtaining their cleansing from their sins.

(God often chooses to delegate various necessary actions to human beings, which they then have to freely choose to do within their own free will which God gives them.    We cannot do those things by ourselves, of course, and Catholics fully recognize that, but when you get right down to it, we actually cannot do anything by ourselves.   You have to breathe to stay alive, and you may say that your are keeping yourself alive partly by breathing, but you cannot take one single breathe by yourself without God willing it be possible, and you cannot stay alive or even exist for one single yoctosecond on your own, without God willing it be so.   God does His part, and He expects us to do our part.)

[Heart-Rest]

=============================================================

"And Jesus said, "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do."    1 John 1:9

And as they were stoning Stephen, he prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."    And he knelt down and cried with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them."     Acts 7:59-60

=============================================================

Jesus prayed His intercessory prayer for the forgiveness (cleansing) of the sinners who were killing Him, and later on Stephen prayed his own intercessory prayer for the forgiveness (cleansing) of the sinners who were killing him, and we can also ask Mary to pray intercessory prayers for us so that we will be able to obtain the forgiveness (cleansing) of our own sins.    Of course, we need to have a contrite heart, and the best way to seek that forgiveness (cleansing) is through confession within the Sacrament of Reconciliation instituted by Jesus Christ.

The best way to learn about the teachings of the Catholic faith, Elsie, is to learn about the teachings of the Catholic faith, not keep looking for various flowery, poetic, exotic prayers or expressions, from a much older form of the various languages from the past, which you probably don't know how to speak.

As can be watched on youtube, Protestant Pastor Jeremiah Wright, in his own "intercessory prayerful petition" during one of his Protestant sermons, loudly asked God for damnation upon America.   We don't want to pretend that that prayer-petition of Pastor Wright is a Protestant teaching, do we?

[Heart-Rest]

"I wasted the time on this video...The guys is extremely short on bible and very long on the human philosophy of Lewis and himself...Matter of fact, this guy never once mentioned a bible verse that I can remember...And that's really easy to understand why..."

=============================================================

You obviously did not access the links to Dr. Jerry Walls contained in my post #70.    Dr. Jerry Walls uses many biblical references in those video clips.    (Go see for yourself.)    He was not preaching a sermon in the clip you watched in my post #78, but was just giving a talk about C. S. Lewis, and that is why he was not quoting the Bible left and right, like he does in some of his other work.

[Heart-Rest]

"That is NOT a broad biblical basis for anything...They all say the same thing...Just one repeating the next one... And they all go back to the same verse to prove something that isn't true..."

=============================================================

That is amazingly inaccurate.

Truthfully, here are the Bible texts referenced in the first three links to written documents in my post #70:

Bible Texts Cited In "Purgatory" (The 2nd link in my post #70)	Bible Texts Cited In "The Roots Of Purgatory" (The 3rd link in my post #70)	Bible Texts Cited In "Is Purgatory in the Bible?" (The 4th link in my post #70)
1 Corinthians 3:15	1 Corinthians 3:11–15	2 Chronicles 6:30
1 Corinthians 9:13–14	2 Maccabees 12:41–45	1 Corinthians 3:11-15
Hebrews 9:27	Matthew 5:25–26	Galatians 5:19-21
Hebrews 12:11	Matthew 12:31–32	Habakkuk 1:13
Hebrews 12:14		James 1:17
Luke 10:7		John 8:40
Luke 12:2–5		John 20:31
Luke 12:59		2 Maccabees 12:39-46
2 Maccabees 12:43–45		Malachi 3:2-3
Matthew 12:32		Mark 9:49
Matthew 25:31-32		Matthew 3:11
1 Peter 3:19		Matthew 3:12
Revelation 21:27		Matthew 5:24-26
Romans 5:3–5		Matthew 7:21-23
2 Thessalonians 2:13		Matthew 12:32
		I Peter 3:19
		Revelation 21:27
		2 Thessalonians 1:7-8

(They obviously are very different kinds of articles, and while they share some of the same Bible texts, each article pointed to says something completely different and unique, and takes a different angle in trying to explain that teaching more clearly.)

It is analogous to the way these five different people in this example below take just one Bible text, and each preach a different and unique sermon about that same Bible text:

• "Billy Graham 1957, John 3:16"
• "My First Sermon - John 3:16 - God's love"
• "God So Love The World (John 3:16) - A Live Sermon 'You Can't Beat God Giving' (Timothy Flemming)"
• "I'm too blessed to be stressed Sermon John 3:16 Reverend Dale Birdsong Anointed Gifts"
• "John 3:16 - Paul Washer - Sermon Jam"

------------------------------------------------------------

"As is his style, Hahn is his video again perverts the scripture to try to make it prove something it doesn't say...That's called deception..."

=============================================================

That is even more amazingly inaccurate than your first assertions in your post, and that kind of offensive calumny is indefensible.

[Heart-Rest]

me:  "Are you saying that all Protestants must reject "purgatory", as if that is a Protestant dogma?"

boatbums:  "Why don't you go back and re-read my comment? Your answer is there already."

=============================================================

Your post #74 said the following:

?????????????????????????????????????????????????????

"There doesn't NEED to be unanimus consensus for Protestants on Purgatory since that dogma is REJECTED."

?????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Like I told you in my post #78, you may reject that belief, but it has definitely not been rejected by all Protestants, including such prominent Protestants as C. S. Lewis, and Dr. Jerry L. Walls, professor at Houston Baptist University.

In other words, Dr. Jerry Walls' own Protestant interpretation of the Holy Scriptures directly contradicts your Protestant interpretation of the Holy Scriptures, regarding that question.

There is also quite a bit of diversity among the various Eastern Orthodox Churches as well concerning "an intermediate state of the soul between death and the final judgment", where they believe prayers for those dead people can be efficacious for them.    (They do not call it "purgatory", which came from the Latin term, but there are strong similarities between the Catholic beliefs about it, and the beliefs that some Orthodox Christians hold.    Just do a quick Google search on orthodox diversity on purgatory to quickly confirm the truth of the existence of that diversity among the Orthodox concerning that matter.)

And for another interesting set of related Protestant youtube videos for you to watch, please check out these ones of Dr. Jerry L. Walls too:

• "What's Wrong With Calvinism; Part 1: Understanding Calvinism. With Dr. Jerry L. Walls"

• "What's Wrong With Calvinism; Part 2: The Heart of the Matter. With Dr. Jerry L. Walls"

• "What's Wrong With Calvinism; Part 3: Why it Matters. With Dr. Jerry L. Walls"

[Heart-Rest]

Correction on second Bible verse in my post #181 -- the actual source for that verse is John 20:23.

[Heart-Rest]

And a correction for the first Bible reference in post 182 -- Luke 23:34.

(Now I need some sleep!)    :-)

Goodnight to all, and I hope everyone's Thanksgiving plans and preparations are going great.

[editor-surveyor]

Misinterpretation of misunderstood scripture is the work of the adversary.

Only those so joined would see anything spiritual there.

Failing to understand that the hallmark of Phariseeism was denial of Yehova’s written Torah, and substitution of their own commandments, much like a prototype of the catholic church, leaves one wandering in severe darkness.

That was the heart of the post that you called spiritual, or did you even read it?
.

[boatbums]

Here is ALL of what I said on the topic:

The words "heaven" and "hell" certainly are in Scripture. The word "purgatory", though is NOT. There doesn't NEED to be unanimous consensus for Protestants on Purgatory since that dogma is REJECTED. Even the Orthodox reject it! My point is that if your religion is going to make something dogma, mandatory to be believed, invent "rules" for how to get people out and other associated doctrines like prayer to departed saints, the treasury of merit, Mary being used to get people out, etc. shouldn't it be expected to have some sort of detail figured out before it gets cemented as an infallible dogma??? Even the meager attempts to appeal to Scripture passages for proof texts is inadequate and it is already known that the Roman Catholic church says she doesn't NEED to rely upon God's word since truth is whatever they say it is.

Maybe that's just peachy fine for some people, but it isn't for me. I know that what God intends for us to believe about Him IS contained in His sacred word and it won't be dependent on some people centuries later finally getting around to figuring it out.

So, rather than addressing only a snippet of my point, why don't you respond to the ACTUAL point? If even many Roman Catholics disagree on the specifics of this place called "Purgatory" as well as what goes on there, then you will have to admit that the Roman Catholic church mandating a belief in it and inventing methods and other dogmas relating to the details, has no real leg to stand on other than the truth is whatever they say it is at the time they say it. That may be sufficient for some RCs, but it isn't and hasn't been for Protestants, Orthodox and other non-Catholic Christians.

[editor-surveyor]

>> One post you admit that we are saved by grace and the next you assert we aren’t saved unless we obey the “Torah” and “endure to the end” doing so <<

.
Change the ‘are’ and ‘aren’t’ to “Will be,” and “Will not be” and you will have a fully scriptural statement that is totally supported by all of the apostle authors, and all of the ancient scriptures.
.

[editor-surveyor]

>> One post you admit that we are saved by grace and the next you assert we aren’t saved unless we obey the “Torah” and “endure to the end” doing so <<

.
Change the ‘are’ and ‘aren’t’ to “Will be,” and “Will not be” and you will have a fully scriptural statement that is totally supported by all of the apostle authors, and all of the ancient scriptures.
.

[boatbums]

Change the ‘are’ and ‘aren’t’ to “Will be,” and “Will not be” and you will have a fully scriptural statement that is totally supported by all of the apostle authors, and all of the ancient scriptures.

When someone has to change words in the Scriptures in order to shoehorn their false and accursed gospel for the GENUINE gospel, they are skating on very thin ice. The gospel you are preaching is NOT the one Paul said was delivered to him BY Jesus Christ. You are espousing the same gospel as the Judaizers and those religious leaders who tried to enforce the Jewish law upon the Gentiles and made their salvation dependent upon the Law of Moses and not the law of grace. You really have no support for what you assert neither from the Apostles nor the ancient Scriptures nor from the writings of the first Christian leaders.

[editor-surveyor]

I’m not asking you to change words in scripture, I’m asking that you change the false words in your statement.

The age of grace began when Adam sinned, and will end on the day in which all that will be saved will receive that salvation: “The Last Trump.”

That is what Moses preached, what Yeshua preached, and what his apostles preached.

.

[Heart-Rest]

"So, rather than addressing only a snippet of my point, why don't you respond to the ACTUAL point? If even many Roman Catholics disagree on the specifics of this place called "Purgatory" as well as what goes on there, then you will have to admit that the Roman Catholic church mandating a belief in it and inventing methods and other dogmas relating to the details, has no real leg to stand on other than the truth is whatever they say it is at the time they say it. That may be sufficient for some RCs, but it isn't and hasn't been for Protestants, Orthodox and other non-Catholic Christians. "

=============================================================

Well, first of all, boatbums, I think it will work much better if you decide what you are going to focus on and address in your posts, and that you let me decide what I'm going to focus on and address in my posts.     :-)

Now, when a surgeon is removing a small tumor from someone's body, should the surgeon's attention be diffused over the whole body while they are operating, or should they focus on the small tumor they are removing?

(If you don't want a particular sentence in your post focused on and addressed by other posters for some reason, the best thing would be to not put that particular sentence into your post in the first place.)

You said that purgatory was "REJECTED", so I wanted to point out the truth of the matter, that it was not rejected by the Catholic Church, and is was also not rejected by some Protestant Christians, and it was also not rejected by some Eastern Orthodox Christians.

Regarding the vague and imprecise knowledge we have about purgatory, the truth is that we also only have vague and imprecise knowledge about heaven, and we also only have vague and imprecise knowledge about hell as well.    The Bible tells us:

------------------------------------------------------------

But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.    1 Corinthians 2:9

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.    1 Corinthians 13:12

------------------------------------------------------------

If you allow that vague and imprecise knowledge to disqualify purgatory, then logically, you should also disqualify any belief in a "heaven" or a "hell" for the exact same reason, since we only have very vague and imprecise knowledge about those two places/concepts as well.

The teachings and revelations of God and God's Church are not a matter of "consensus" of the members of the Church, or what all Catholics happen to agree on.    (We would probably never have any teachings then, as there is probably no teaching which everyone agrees on exactly.)

Rather, the teachings of the Church are based on the truth as given by God to His Church, whether that truth is accepted by people or not.    God does not authorize a vote to see which teachings people should be required to accept and believe in, but, rather, tells us what the truth is that we should all believe.    Everyone has free will and can choose to dissent from those teachings of the truth, but that does not invalidate those truths in the least.

As the Church plainly teaches, there is a "purgatory" or "purgative state" that some souls will pass through after their life on earth ends (on their way to heaven), and we do not know exactly what that experience will be like for them, or exactly how it will work, but we do know that it prepares them for heaven.

[boatbums]

I'm not asking you to change words in scripture, I'm asking that you change the false words in your statement.

WHAT false words in my statement??? When I said:

One post you admit that we are saved by grace and the next you assert we aren’t saved unless we obey the “Torah” and “endure to the end” doing so

To which YOU said:

Change the ‘are’ and ‘aren’t’ to “Will be,” and “Will not be” and you will have a fully scriptural statement that is totally supported by all of the apostle authors, and all of the ancient scriptures.

That means you assert:

We will be saved by grace and we will not be saved unless we obey the “Torah".

I can show you many verses that say we ARE saved by grace - present tense. Can you show me any that say only that we "will be" saved by grace and that it is only at some possible future event after we have "obeyed the Torah" completely? I can show you Scripture that says we are not saved by obeying the Torah. Can you show me anywhere that says we will not be saved unless we obey the Torah/the Law of Moses? The more you post, the more convinced I am that you haven't the foggiest idea what "grace" really is. Read Paul's epistle to the Romans. Maybe it might help you. Also see:

But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood — to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished — he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. (Romans 3:21-28)

[boatbums]

You said that purgatory was "REJECTED", so I wanted to point out the truth of the matter, that it was not rejected by the Catholic Church, and is was also not rejected by some Protestant Christians, and it was also not rejected by some Eastern Orthodox Christians.

Purgatory WAS rejected by the first Protestants and by the Orthodox precisely because it was NOT a doctrine either taught in Scripture, by the Apostles OR by the ancient church. The whole idea didn't even start to be discussed until CENTURIES after all the Apostles died. It really isn't about what "some" Protestants believe today. That wasn't the point I was trying to make. If some want to believe in some form or another of some ethereal place like a "purgatory", it neither makes it the truth nor does it establish that it belongs as part of the original Christian faith. Even the whole idea surrounding the need for such a place is unscriptural.

Regarding the vague and imprecise knowledge we have about purgatory, the truth is that we also only have vague and imprecise knowledge about heaven, and we also only have vague and imprecise knowledge about hell as well.

We have reams more knowledge about heaven and hell than you do about this imaginary place called Purgatory. It isn't "vague" nor "imprecise" but as clear as God can possibly describe them to finite minds incapable of grasping the infinite. Explain why Catholicism has such a cottage industry surrounding such a dogma as Purgatory when there is so much LESS precision and clarity about it than what God has revealed about heaven and hell in His word?

It does boil down to the Roman Catholic church asserting its authority ABOVE that of Divinely-revealed Scripture and presuming to condemn genuine Christians, who refuse to accept the so-called "truth" the Catholic church creates, as heretics when it is Catholicism that spreads soul-killing heresy. When God says we ARE justified by grace through faith APART from our works and that the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from ALL sin, there is NO need for an intermediate place to cleanse ourselves from sins we have yet to be penalized for after our death. To teach Purgatory is to deny grace. It negates grace. JESUS is our place of cleansing.

[editor-surveyor]

>> That means you assert:

We will be saved by grace and we will not be saved unless we obey the “Torah”. <<

.
That is the essence of what Yeshua and his apostles have told us.

The difficulty you seen to be having with grasping the fine points of this id probably because you were taught exactly what I was taught.

Problem with all that childhood learning is that none of it fits scripture.
.

[metmom]

If you allow that vague and imprecise knowledge to disqualify purgatory, then logically, you should also disqualify any belief in a "heaven" or a "hell" for the exact same reason, since we only have very vague and imprecise knowledge about those two places/concepts as well.

She didn't say it was vague or imprecise definitions that were the basis for rejecting purgatory. Your analogy doesn't work because heaven and hell are mentioned specifically by name in many places in Scripture.

There isn't even an allusion to purgatory anywhere in Scripture, much less mention of it by name.

[metmom]

As the Church plainly teaches, there is a "purgatory" or "purgative state" that some souls will pass through after their life on earth ends (on their way to heaven), and we do not know exactly what that experience will be like for them, or exactly how it will work, but we do know that it prepares them for heaven.

The only *preparation* necessary for heaven is to be forgiven by God and given the righteousness of Christ. There is nothing else.

Either we are saved now or not. There is nothing after death that can affect our eternal destiny. The born again believer is absent from the body and present with the Lord.

The unsaved person goes to hell.